It's time to sports!

[altpersona]

at least one online betting site is giving refunds for last nights game.

[dipolartech]

I'm sorry Dman but you've just shown the problem, expectation bias you expect that "replacement refs" not to be as good and so you second guess and assign greater negative value to every call they make. "Flow of the game"? All calls that can go several different ways will effect the entire game and its outcome because its a human social/physiological constructed interaction, chaotic by nature, which means small perturbations might affect the outcome (hard to tell most of the time cause you know chaotic).

Its always been fun to yell at the refs, and say you can make better calls, now its just that people think they have an even better right to say that because the "replacement refs" are "minor leaguers" or have " a pick up game level" of expertise.

EDIT: P.S. I apologize for lack of ability to string coherent sentences together, as well as spell things.

[dman11235]

Really?  So the fact that the refs have problems with the legislation of calls, have problems getting calls right, and have problems with getting the calls done and the drives continued is not a problem?  I have no doubt that the game would have turned out differently if the normal refs had been here.  Seattle would have legitimately won, rather than having to rely on a botched call.  There is no doubt, that final catch should have been ruled an interception.  But it wasn't.  There should have been holding called in Green Bay's TD drive that would have prevented it (assuming they kick instead of going for it on 4th), but it wasn't.  There should have been offensive pass interference on the Seattle TD that was called defensive pass interference.  There are calls throughout this season that have been made flat out wrong, and normally, the calls are just wrong "because my opinion says so".  In the SNF game, there was a call against Baltimore for illegal contact down field, when it should have been holding (contact happened within 5 yards, so legal, but was holding, so illegal), and then they didn't call holding later on when a Baltimore guy brought Gronkowski to the ground, preventing him from continuing on his route.

As for flow of the game: flow is very important in football.  The sport is less about trowing and tackling and kicking than it is about strategy, and mental fortitude is important.  If you give the defense a 5 minute break to sort out the last play, you ruin the no-huddle offense that the offense has been building up.  It could easily cost them a TD.

[dipolartech]

I agree with you that the Flow is very important, I was attempting to point out how hard it really is to predict that "Flow" given how many different thigns happen during a game.

Yes you can pile up as many as examples as you have from this season saying how bad these refs are and how specific calls really did have a massive effect on a game and I'm sure I can find somebody willing to say that those "good ole refs" screwed the pooch for his/her favorite team every game last year.

The big deal here is that everybody is expecting it, everybody wants to talk about it, and nobody really remembers previous years and all the calls that destroyed a team's chance for winning.

P.S. maybe these guys do "suck" I dunno, I'd rather be playing d&d than watching football these days.

[dman11235]

The volume and significance of bad calls are more pronounced this year.  I didn't even know about the lockout until after I saw a few bad games, but it seems to actually be getting more pronounced as time goes on.  I'm trying to keep in mind that effect that you're talking about, and yet it's still obvious.

[dman11235]

I summon the powers of TSHERN*!  I must know: who should I root for in the KHL?  It looks like I might be able to see some games on ESPN this year.

*or anyone else who might know teams from the KHL....And yes, I know you're more of the.....what's that league?  The one ins Sweden?  But still, you know more about the KHL than I do.

[dman11235]

Can someone PLEASE tell me how/why throwing a challenge flag on a non-challengable play (scoring, turn-over, within 2-minutes, in OT) automatically makes the call on the field stand, even when the call on the field is explicitly wrong?  Like, look at it for an instant and say "yeah, reversed" wrong?

[InnaBinder]

Can someone PLEASE tell me how/why throwing a challenge flag on a non-challengable play (scoring, turn-over, within 2-minutes, in OT) automatically makes the call on the field stand, even when the call on the field is explicitly wrong?  Like, look at it for an instant and say "yeah, reversed" wrong?

The thinking is that reviewing the play at that point "rewards" the coach who broke the rules on which plays he could challenge.  It's pretty stupid; I wouldn't be at all surprised to see that aspect of the challenge system up for review this off-season.

[dman11235]

Last season it was a personal foul.  Which is a 15 yard penalty and automatic first down, if applicable.  This season it automatically makes the potentially bad call (in this case definitely bad call) legal.  This is the first way a penalty can give a team points (penalties like intentional grounding in the end zone don't count, since it's counting the player as down at the spot of the foul).

[dman11235]

It's Super Bowl time!!!!  Let's go Niners!!!!!

[InnaBinder]

It's Super Bowl time!!!!  Let's go Niners!!!!!

I predict a Harbaugh gets to hold the trophy and get a Gatorade bath tonight.

[dman11235]

Aaaaand the third game this season decided by the refs!  NO call on shoving a ref, no call on blow to the head, no call on holding in the redzone that costs the Niners a touchdown, etc. etc.

[Unbeliever]

All games are decided by the refs.  There will always be debatable calls in any game, it's just that in some games they happen in the 4th quarter. 

I didn't see any particularly bad calls -- they were consistently letting them do a lot of pushing and shoving, which I prefer to calling pass interference, et al. on anything.  And, no commentators were particularly put out by the calls. 

Refs are bound to miss something; it's just really bad when they miss something particularly egregious.  The holding call in the endzone was missable -- on replay it seems like there should have been a call.  But, by the same token, upon replay there probably should have been an offensive pass interference call. 

[InnaBinder]

I recall no less an authority than John Madden asserting that - should he so desire - the umpire could call holding on essentially every play and be technically accurate.  Sometimes, they have to let them play.

[zugschef]

the officiating in this game was worse than in 2005 when the seahawks lost to the steelers.

#1 Blowing the whistle before the fumble by James, which makes guys quit on the play on both sides (watch the replay!), and then calling it a turnover.
#2 No call for holding on the return touchdown
 #3 No call for Ed Reed LINING UP offsides on the 2PC
 #4 No call for defensive holding on the 49er's final offensive play

there were more bad calls on both sides, but these were key situations. call me a bad loser, but the niners were the better team over 60 minutes and should have won.

[Unbeliever]

but the niners were the better team over 60 minutes and should have won.

As someone who was reasonably fond of the 49ers (I'm a Giants fan) last year, largely b/c I'm a fan of defenses and power football in this league of Breeses and Bradies and Mannings. 

This sentiment is enough to turn all of us off to the team.  They said it when they lost to the Giants, in what was a nearly perfect game on both sides.  And, it seems to invalidate the play and the efforts of their opponents. 

And, it's a stretch that a team that was down by over 20 points, and who played a poor first half, to be "the better team over 60 minutes."  Even if you throw all those calls in the 49ers favor, the game is still extremely close.  And, in the words of their coach, the 49ers didn't play their best game. 

[dman11235]

If you take away the fumble, the game wouldn't have been 22 points away from the 49ers.  If you call that interference on Culliver's should-have-been interception, it wouldn't have even gotten to 8 points out of hand.  And if it never got to that point, the 49ers probably wouldn't have missed the 2-point conversion, because they would have kicked an extra point.  So basically, you take a game of bad calls away, you have the 49ers down by a much more reasonable half.  They played better in the first half than the score suggested.  Not to mention the momentum swings that an early interception would have brought, and the fumble would have eliminated.

[zugschef]

And, it's a stretch that a team that was down by over 20 points, and who played a poor first half, to be "the better team over 60 minutes."

the team that comes back from 22 points despite getting a hard time by the refs is better in my opinion. and as a giants fan: do you remember that fumble by bradshaw in the championship game last year? if that was ruled forward progress, how was james' fumble not forward progress?

[dman11235]

One of the very few times I will agree with a Giants fan.  The Niners almost won despite the hard time by the refs.  that's the better team.

EDIT: Eh, well, at least we have the most beautiful bridge.  I wonder what commercial they would have played if the Niners won?  I can't think of what Baltimore even has....

[zugschef]

One of the very few times I will agree with a Giants fan.  The Niners almost won despite the hard time by the refs.  that's the better team.

EDIT: Eh, well, at least we have the most beautiful bridge.  I wonder what commercial they would have played if the Niners won?  I can't think of what Baltimore even has....

no, i'm no giants fan. unbeliever said he was one. ;-)