What kind of ability is Spellcasting?

[jywu98]

What is it? I've heard people argue that Spellcasting is a natural ability, an extraordinary ability, or not an ability at all. By RAW, who's right?

EDIT: Also, is spellcasting the same ability as spells?

[RedWarlock]

Don't take my word as word of gods or anything, but It's always read to me that spellcasting is its own category of ability, like if they were in order: (Ex), (Su), (Sp), Spellcasting. It's basically a rank beyond spell-like abilities in that order. (psionic powers would share the rank of spellcasting, the same way psi-like abilities would share the rank of spell-like abilities.)

[dman11235]

It doesn't have a designator.  Much like the attack sequence doesn't have a designator.  Those abilities are actually a secondary layer of abilities, referencing base abilities.  Those are spell casting, psionics, mundane actions, and anything else on that order.  It's not really well worded I think.

[X-Codes]

Heck, you could even argue that it's a class ability.  Truth is, don't try using Alter Self to turn into a monster with innate spellcasting and somehow insist that you're now able to cast those spells.  That's just begging for your DM to boot you from the game.

[dman11235]

Do keep in mind that class abilities typically have (ex), (su), or (sp).  Class ability is not an ability type.

[X-Codes]

Do keep in mind that class abilities typically have (ex), (su), or (sp).  Class ability is not an ability type.

Key word is typically.  Spells doesn't have an ability type there, either.

I think Warlock is right, there was something of an understanding among the game designers that spells were something else entirely, but somehow they missed editing some line of text in the Monster Manual (or DMG, don't remember which) or never intended the line to have the scope it's been interpreted to have.

[jywu98]

But "Spells" are listed under "Special Attacks" in the MM entries, and "Special Attacks" are a type of "Special Ability" which have to fall under (Ex), (Sp), or (Su). Or am I wrong?

[ariasderros]

Any creature in MMV that has racial spellcasting has the spells listed as Special Attacks, but the ability to cast as a (Ex) Special Quality.
The Lilitu in the Fiendish Codex is the same, but hers is a special variant.

-there are others, but those are few and far between, and my point is made.

[Drammor]

Do keep in mind that class abilities typically have (ex), (su), or (sp).  Class ability is not an ability type.

Unless you're really good at eating brains.

[JohnnyMayHymn]

EDIT: nm, was thinking of something else... (Planar Shepherd)

[Thurbane]

I'm not sure how relevant it is, but in the Spell Compendium, under the Discern Shapechanger spell, it says the following:

For the purpose of this spell, a shapechanger is any creature with the shapechanger type or a supernatural or extraordinary ability that allows it to assume an alternate form. A wizard who knows alter self is not a shapechanger (since a spell is not a supernatural or extraordinary ability), but a barghest is (since it has the supernatural ability to assume alternate forms, even though its type is outsider).

[ariasderros]

I'm not sure how relevant it is, but in the Spell Compendium, under the Discern Shapechanger spell, it says the following:

For the purpose of this spell, a shapechanger is any creature with the shapechanger type or a supernatural or extraordinary ability that allows it to assume an alternate form. A wizard who knows alter self is not a shapechanger (since a spell is not a supernatural or extraordinary ability), but a barghest is (since it has the supernatural ability to assume alternate forms, even though its type is outsider).

The MMV and such arguments are reinforced by this. The spells are special attacks. The ability to cast spells is an (Ex) special quality. The spell itself has no "type" and follows its own rules, because the spell isn't an ability, it is the effect of an ability. That is like having an SLA that grants Mage Armor. The AC isn't an ability, but the result of one.

[X-Codes]

I'm not sure how relevant it is, but in the Spell Compendium, under the Discern Shapechanger spell, it says the following:

For the purpose of this spell, a shapechanger is any creature with the shapechanger type or a supernatural or extraordinary ability that allows it to assume an alternate form. A wizard who knows alter self is not a shapechanger (since a spell is not a supernatural or extraordinary ability), but a barghest is (since it has the supernatural ability to assume alternate forms, even though its type is outsider).

The MMV and such arguments are reinforced by this. The spells are special attacks. The ability to cast spells is an (Ex) special quality. The spell itself has no "type" and follows its own rules, because the spell isn't an ability, it is the effect of an ability. That is like having an SLA that grants Mage Armor. The AC isn't an ability, but the result of one.

The one thing I am absolutely certain of after reading this: It is way more complicated than it ever should have been.

[ariasderros]

Well, I'm just explaining the argument, and it's RAW basis. Whether it works that way in any particular campaign, is up to the DM.

[Agita]

Well, I'm just explaining the argument, and it's RAW basis. Whether it works that way in any particular campaign, is up to the DM.

This, basically. The one thing that I believe most can agree on regarding the topic is that few DMs would particularly like to see it.

[ariasderros]

Well, I'm just explaining the argument, and it's RAW basis. Whether it works that way in any particular campaign, is up to the DM.

This, basically. The one thing that I believe most can agree on regarding the topic is that few DMs would particularly like to see it.

Agreed. With it as an (Ex) SQ, Shapechange can get it, as can Enhance Wild Shape and Master of Many Forms.
As a DM, I do allow this. Though I make people spend time to prepare.
w/ WS, there aren't that many forms that would grant it.
With the other two, I allow the trick to work, but I usually don't allow that spell or class.

[SorO_Lost]

wow, what an old argument. MMI's example list, from a book series with thousands of incorrect examples, says something that can lead to a contradiction of all other text, it must be right! Haven't seen something like this for a week :rollseyes:

1.
Q: What kind of ability is using Bardic Music?
Why haven't you asked that yet? Oooh, maybe you should ask what 'type' feats are, or skills like using Balance, or the act of using Cleave and Attacking is too. Quick, argue those are all Extraordinary abilities because why the hell not?

2. MMV's "ex casting" isn't a point.
Arcane Talent and Divine Talent are Ex, as they say they are. This isn't a retroactive rules replacement, this is a monster ability entry. It's like saying all forms of Evasion are blocked by Antimagic just because a Ring of Evasion was printed.

3.
"By Raw" Natural abilities are part of Special Abilities and "By Raw" Natural Abilities state they include all untyped abilities which makes it a 1049% more accurate to say Spellcasting is a natural trait, a knowledge based one at that, rather than omg you're body has nothing to do with somentic components so clearly it gets hung up there and it must be Ex.

4.
Skill Ranks, BAB, Base Saves, HD, etc are flat out untyped abilities and bonuses. You know what else is untyped? Bardic Knowledge is also untyped, Spells is untyped, Feats are untyped, Spontaneous Casting/Alignment Restrictions on Cleric spells is untyped, Druid's Language is untyped, Paladin's CoC is untyped, hey are we seeing a pattern here yet? I've got an idea, rather than ignoring Spells is really a type into it's self so you can cast into into a mold no authors agree with you on. Why not come up with the concept it's a knowledge based trait, a skill you may learn in life, and leave it at that.

[ariasderros]

I am assuming you have been having a bad day, SorO. Because you are not coming across as your usual self. You are usually much more even-headed and reasonable.

(click to show/hide)

A) Calm down and drop the attitude. Just because you have a point, doesn't mean yours is the only point that is valid. Just because this has been discussed so many times, doesn't mean it wont be discussed many more.
B) Bardic music isn't a single ability, but a grouping of other abilities under a single heading, each of which has its type given. If you want to be a smartass, choose a better example. Sneak Attack is my favorite when I want to troll this conversation.
C) Hey, speaking of, the Rogues SA is untyped. All other incarnations of SA are (Ex). But I guess the Rogue has the only (Sp) SA in the game. The fact that every other one tells you what the ability is, doesn't affect how that ability is read when it is left untyped. Because precedent doesn't exist in logical debate.
D) Hey, the Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis grants access to an (Ex) HiPS. AMF suppresses the magic item, causing you to lose the template, and thus the ability, so then that must mean the ability is not (Ex) for an actual Dark Creature either. Because AMF made you lose it. So Evasion works the same way too, so it's never (Ex). Because you said so.

The point is, it is up to your DM. If you are the DM, it is up to you.

Well, I'm just explaining the argument, and it's RAW basis. Whether it works that way in any particular campaign, is up to the DM.

This, basically. The one thing that I believe most can agree on regarding the topic is that few DMs would particularly like to see it.

Edit: re-ordered post to come across better.

[Lo77o]

wow, what an old argument. MMI's example list, from a book series with thousands of incorrect examples, says something that can lead to a contradiction of all other text, it must be right! Haven't seen something like this for a week :rollseyes:

1.
Q: What kind of ability is using Bardic Music?
Why haven't you asked that yet? Oooh, maybe you should ask what 'type' feats are, or skills like using Balance, or the act of using Cleave and Attacking is too. Quick, argue those are all Extraordinary abilities because why the hell not?

2. MMV's "ex casting" isn't a point.
Arcane Talent and Divine Talent are Ex, as they say they are. This isn't a retroactive rules replacement, this is a monster ability entry. It's like saying all forms of Evasion are blocked by Antimagic just because a Ring of Evasion was printed.

3.
"By Raw" Natural abilities are part of Special Abilities and "By Raw" Natural Abilities state they include all untyped abilities which makes it a 1049% more accurate to say Spellcasting is a natural trait, a knowledge based one at that, rather than omg you're body has nothing to do with somentic components so clearly it gets hung up there and it must be Ex.

4.
Skill Ranks, BAB, Base Saves, HD, etc are flat out untyped abilities and bonuses. You know what else is untyped? Bardic Knowledge is also untyped, Spells is untyped, Feats are untyped, Spontaneous Casting/Alignment Restrictions on Cleric spells is untyped, Druid's Language is untyped, Paladin's CoC is untyped, hey are we seeing a pattern here yet? I've got an idea, rather than ignoring Spells is really a type into it's self so you can cast into into a mold no authors agree with you on. Why not come up with the concept it's a knowledge based trait, a skill you may learn in life, and leave it at that.

I agree with 99% of your post. But listing a few things from classes that are untyped serves no purpose. Let me give it a try. "Fast Movement, Rage, Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense, Improved Uncanny dodge, Damage Reduction, Greater Rage, Indomitable Will, Tireless Rage, Mighty Rage, Countersong, Fascinate, Inspire Courage, Inspire Competence, Suggestion, Inspire Greatness, Song of Freedom, Inspire Herorics, Mass Suggestion, Clerics Aura, Turn/Rebuke Undead, Animal Companion, Natures Sense, Wild Empathy, Woodland Stride, Trackless Step, Resist Natures Lure, Wild Shape, Venom Immunity, A Thousand Faces, Timeless Body, AC Bonus, Flurry of Blows, Evasion, Fast Movement, Still Mind, Ki Strike, Slow Fall, Purity of Body, Wholeness of Body, Improved Evasion, Diamond Body, Abundant Step, Diamond Soul, Quivering Palm, Timeless Body, Tounge of the Sun and Moon Empty Body, Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil, Divine Grace, Lay on Hands, Aura of Courage, Divine Health, Turn Undead, Special Mount, Remove Disease, Favored Enemy, Combat Style, Improved Combat Style, Woodland Stride, Swift Tracker, Combat Style Mastery, Camouflage, Hide in Plain Sight is all class features that is not untyped. DO YOU SEE A PATTERN HERE? ....

At best the designers did a piss poor job when making this. And with most sources not saying anything about the type of spellcasting, and some sources listing it as an "Ex" ability, i see RaW argument against a group of players using it as an "Ex" ability.

On a side note. Listing a bunch of class features is pointless.. So is listing languages, BaB and etc.. The polymorph spells and abilities all list what you get and what you dont get. And among those are feats/BaB and so on described. The one thing in the spell that is confusing is if you get racial spellcasting or not, and for that you need to figure out if its "Ex".

[Quillwraith]

The SRD says:

Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.

It also says:

Spells

Dark nagas cast spells as 7th-level sorcerers. 

It does not designate spells as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.

I think that this is more sensible, though, even if it's not what the rules say:

spellcasting is its own category of ability, like if they were in order: (Ex), (Su), (Sp), Spellcasting. It's basically a rank beyond spell-like abilities in that order. (psionic powers would share the rank of spellcasting, the same way psi-like abilities would share the rank of spell-like abilities.)