What kind of ability is Spellcasting?

[Lo77o]

The SRD says:

Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.

It also says:

Spells

Dark nagas cast spells as 7th-level sorcerers. 

It does not designate spells as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.

I think that this is more sensible, though, even if it's not what the rules say:

spellcasting is its own category of ability, like if they were in order: (Ex), (Su), (Sp), Spellcasting. It's basically a rank beyond spell-like abilities in that order. (psionic powers would share the rank of spellcasting, the same way psi-like abilities would share the rank of spell-like abilities.)

The thing is that is some entries like the one you just showed us, it is not designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like. But in newer books, such as the latest monster manuals and others, racial spell casting is designated as an extraordinary ability. So what can we take from this? That sometimes it is extraordinary, and sometimes it is a nonability? Or that the designers didn't think about it until they printed the latest books, and then they included it?

[jywu98]

Feats are untyped

BoED states that most feats are extraordinary.

"By Raw" Natural abilities are part of Special Abilities

SRD states that Special Abilities are only Su, Ex, or Sp.

[ariasderros]

The thing is that is some entries like the one you just showed us, it is not designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like. But in newer books, such as the latest monster manuals and others, racial spell casting is designated as an extraordinary ability. So what can we take from this? That sometimes it is extraordinary, and sometimes it is a nonability? Or that the designers didn't think about it until they printed the latest books, and then they included it?

That's the way I look at it, but I can understand why others do not think the same.
At this point, the debate has been going on for something like 8 years. If someone asks, I'll put up what the argumentation is (as I already did). Otherwise, I just leave this alone because most people who care have made up their mind.

Until 5th comes out and this all starts over again. yippee.

Feats are untyped

BoED states that most feats are extraordinary.

And feats that aren't Ex specify as much, like Divine and Wild feats. But let's leave this alone for now. Both me and lo77o came down on that post pretty hard. Plus, SorO is normally awesome. So I think that was just a bad day / tired of this argument / tired and hungry, or whatever, post wherein he likely went further than he meant to. So I want to see how he'll respond before actually trying to correct any of his sub-points.

[Agita]

The thing is that is some entries like the one you just showed us, it is not designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like. But in newer books, such as the latest monster manuals and others, racial spell casting is designated as an extraordinary ability. So what can we take from this? That sometimes it is extraordinary, and sometimes it is a nonability? Or that the designers didn't think about it until they printed the latest books, and then they included it?

That's the way I look at it, but I can understand why others do not think the same.
At this point, the debate has been going on for something like 8 years. If someone asks, I'll put up what the argumentation is (as I already did). Otherwise, I just leave this alone because most people who care have made up their mind.

Until 5th comes out and this all starts over again. yippee.

Agreed. No point has been made in this thread so far that hasn't been regurgitated over and over over the years. Most prior threads devolved into name-calling quickly, it would be neat if we could just list the arguments here and let people make up their minds on their own.

Come to think of it, perhaps there should be a list of controversial topics like this and the respective arguments pro and contra (not that that hasn't also been suggested multiple times).

[ariasderros]

Come to think of it, perhaps there should be a list of controversial topics like this and the respective arguments pro and contra (not that that hasn't also been suggested multiple times).

This would be great. The problem is that by the time people recognize it is a controversial topic, feelings have been hurt and as many ideas have been lost or buried in irrelevant text as have been discovered.

i.e. How the IP-proofing thread started out.

Because of this, sorting through all of the crap to get to the gems is a task no one wants to do.
Because of this, whichever of you mods it would be to reign over this theoretical thread would have a MONUMENTAL task trying to keep things civil.

[Jackinthegreen]

As far as I've seen, the ability and knowledge to cast spells is extraordinary.  The spells themselves of course are spells.

We once had an antimagic field argument that relates to this.  Some people argued that because it prevents spells from working, it also prevents trying to cast the spell.  What happens with spells like Wall of Force though?  The fact that the spell ignores AMF should allow being able to cast it in an AMF, right?

[awaken_D_M_golem]

iirc - it was the last Polymorph re-rules-ing and
near the end of the old T.O. board , that this got
hashed out.  So it's been a while.

again iirc - K and FrankT argued it in such a way
that the : "Polymorph gets you the monster's casting"
idea started then.

Otherwise, I forget whatever details played into it.

[ariasderros]

As far as I've seen, the ability and knowledge to cast spells is extraordinary.  The spells themselves of course are spells.

We once had an antimagic field argument that relates to this.  Some people argued that because it prevents spells from working, it also prevents trying to cast the spell.  What happens with spells like Wall of Force though?  The fact that the spell ignores AMF should allow being able to cast it in an AMF, right?

Invoke.

[jywu98]

i.e. How the IP-proofing thread started out.

Might be off-topic, but what's the IP-proofing thread?

[ariasderros]

i.e. How the IP-proofing thread started out.

Might be off-topic, but what's the IP-proofing thread?

To be fair: this off-topic was started by a mod
Mistaken implications of IP-proofing. The thread actually does get to the point of being an actual conversation, you just have to start with littha's post at the top of Pg3.

[Jackinthegreen]

Invoke.

Could you explain further?  Are you referencing the DFA/Warlock ability, or something else?

[ariasderros]

Invoke.

Could you explain further?  Are you referencing the DFA/Warlock ability, or something else?

You referenced spells that are wonky about AMF, I referenced the 9th level evocation spell out of LoM that you can cast in an AMF, to let you cast in an AMF.

[Thurbane]

The thing is that is some entries like the one you just showed us, it is not designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like. But in newer books, such as the latest monster manuals and others, racial spell casting is designated as an extraordinary ability. So what can we take from this? That sometimes it is extraordinary, and sometimes it is a nonability? Or that the designers didn't think about it until they printed the latest books, and then they included it?

I don't know that that is neccessarily true - specific, named monster abilities that mimic spellcasting are called out as Ex, I don't know of any cases where generic innate spellcasting is called out as Ex, though I may well be wrong.

[ariasderros]

The thing is that is some entries like the one you just showed us, it is not designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like. But in newer books, such as the latest monster manuals and others, racial spell casting is designated as an extraordinary ability. So what can we take from this? That sometimes it is extraordinary, and sometimes it is a nonability? Or that the designers didn't think about it until they printed the latest books, and then they included it?

I don't know that that is neccessarily true - specific, named monster abilities that mimic spellcasting are called out as Ex, I don't know of any cases where generic innate spellcasting is called out as Ex, though I may well be wrong.

 
The "specific, named monster abilities that mimic spellcasting" are nothing more than "generic innate spellcasting" given name and type.
Unless you'd care to explain what difference there is between the casting of a Solar and an Exalted Whip, other than Domains and level.

In any case, we (the boards) aren't going to agree. We never have on this issue. And it isn't going to be given any rules update or clarification. We aren't going to come up with anything new here that hasn't been gone over before.

Someone here should just collect the entire argument set, post it in the OP, and let this die.

[wotmaniac]

This thing again?  I think the last one went for 30+ pages, and accomplished nothing.

Spells don't have a designator.  If I had to make the call myself, I'd say that they are their own designator; they're pre-packaged bundles of magical energy.  What is fireball?  It's a spell.  The PHB glossary defines "spell" as simply "a one time magical effect" -- which, to me, seems to support idea that they are their own designator.  Spellcasting, on the other hand, might be a different story; but I don't think so.  BTW, that same glossary defines "spellcaster" as "a character capable of casting spells".  And that's about it.
The ability designator "spell-like" means just that -- they are like spells ... which implicitly tells you that they are indeed different, despite the similarities.
The ability to cast a spell definitionally can't be supernatural.
Spellcasting doesn't get the EX designator because of the disastrous results that would bring.
Is it natural?  Probably not, and for the same reasons that it's not EX.  But I would think that "natural" has the strongest support (if nothing else, then simply by process of elimination).

As to the monster entries ....
"Special Attacks" is simply anything that is not punching you in the face.  As was said before, fuck you if you expect to get spells from Alter Self (besides, it would be pointless anyway, since you don't have time to prepare those spells).
Spells, however, IIRC, are generally put in "Special Qualities" section.  Which means that you may be able to get them from Shapechange .... if you can already cast shapechange, then go for it (but then, there's still that pesky little detail about preparing them -- even if they're cast like a sorcerer, you still need 15 minutes).


*<goes and grabs a snickers>*

[Jackinthegreen]

Invoke.

Could you explain further?  Are you referencing the DFA/Warlock ability, or something else?

You referenced spells that are wonky about AMF, I referenced the 9th level evocation spell out of LoM that you can cast in an AMF, to let you cast in an AMF.

Ah, Invoke Magic.  That's pretty useful and is a great example of "specific trumps general."

[snakeman830]

(psionic powers would share the rank of spellcasting, the same way psi-like abilities would share the rank of spell-like abilities.)

Psionic Powers are actually explicitly stated to be spell-like abilities on the SRD (technically they're defined as psi-like abilities which are equivalent to spell-likes under normal transparency rules).  Psionics are oddly clear for a subsystem.

[SorO_Lost]

I am assuming you have been having a bad day, SorO. Because you are not coming across as your usual self. You are usually much more even-headed and reasonable.

I'm never even-headed, but I just had a four hour nap if that helps. I also keep imagining JaronK screaming MMI PROVES EVERYTHING for 60 pages across eight different boards and now look, a whole new generation of app based people not used to reading anything not contained in a text message. >.>

Point(s) being Spellcasting isn't typed anywhere, to type it is to be adding house rules no matter what kind of validation you think you have.

They are not considered a Special Ability even in the MMV either.
If you wonder why I think anyone attempting to cite this book needs to be smacked upside their head before being so retarded they were kicked out of special education, it's probably because the damn book makes a better point proving it isn't. Check the first few pages where Reading the Entries flat out states SA/SQ is to have a copy of all Special Abilities (I'm short handing to SA) even if printed else where, and how the SA Descriptions entry and Spellcasting is separate. Now flip to page 84 for a Hobgoblin Duskblade and tell me what the hell you see. The MMV did create a Arcane/Divine Talent SQ that grants spellcasting yes, but as pointed out this is not a retroactive rules replacement retype casting spellcasting. So it you want to talk about digging through books for fun monster abilities to obtain by Polymorph yeah Arcane Talent is pretty awesome and is a worth while mention, but if you want to talk about rules on spellcasting you're about as far removed from the pertinent rules as the ingredient listing on my pepsi can is.

MMI's opinion is ignorable anyway.
The only "for" argument is Spells is listed as a SA in the MMI's glossary. And even then it remains untyped which goes back making up house rules regardless. Even so, as the Errata states the MM is not rules on spellcasting and any contradictions (such as saying it's an SA) that opposes the PHB is to be ignored. You want rules on Spellcasting? Read Chapter 10 and 11 of the PHB, anything else really doesn't matter barring the obvious exceptions like the RC or Errata.

And well... That's it really. The only points anyone thinks that have is smacked down in two poorly written paragraphs that summarize to read the book. The point that type casting is a house rule, while true, is never even reached and is almost as bad as an illogical leap that Spellcasting is Ex vs points that it's better typed as Natural (rules would state so) or Su/Sp (ex is none-magical).

***

Also, Antimagic Field doesn't block spells, it suppresses them. It's a huge difference. Spells are not blocked within AMF unless it's duration is instantaneous for obvious reasons. So for instance you can cast Haste on your self while in an AMF and as soon as you step out (assuming within haste's duration) you'll gain the benefit from it. Haste is neither canceled nor blocked merely it's effects are suppressed so long as you remain in an AMF. It's why Invoke Magic works*.
*ding* The more you know.

*Well, mostly on that works part. Funny thing about Invoke is it contains no text stating it's effects are not suppressed in AMF, meaning you cannot gain it's benefit while standing in an AMF your self. It's only useful to cast into an AMF while standing outside one, probably not intended, but that's how it works without house ruling otherwise.

[RedWarlock]

(psionic powers would share the rank of spellcasting, the same way psi-like abilities would share the rank of spell-like abilities.)

Psionic Powers are actually explicitly stated to be spell-like abilities on the SRD (technically they're defined as psi-like abilities which are equivalent to spell-likes under normal transparency rules).  Psionics are oddly clear for a subsystem.

Can you link that reference? When I was talking about powers, I specifically was referring to the powers manifested by a psion, for instance.

The psionics of a mind flayer or aboleth(which is where you're referencing, I believe) are (sp) in the monster manual and SRD, but the XPH and psionics portion of the SRD ret-cons them into psi-like abilities. Oddly enough, there are inconsistencies even in the XPH, where psi-likes are said to function like spell-likes (in the monster chapter), the phrenic template grants psi-like abilities by name but tags them with the (sp) mark, psi-like entries for every monster and race in the book are untagged, and yet the description of psi-likes on pg. 65 declares them their own type, (ps), even though I haven't found it being used anywhere yet...

[jywu98]

Can you link that reference? When I was talking about powers, I specifically was referring to the powers manifested by a psion, for instance.

From SRD: The manifestation of powers by a psionic character is considered a psi-like ability, as is the manifestation of powers by creatures without a psionic class (creatures with the psionic subtype, also simply called psionic creatures). Usually, a psionic creature’s psi-like ability works just like the power of that name. A few psi-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described.