[3.5] Do Druids Suck?

[Mooncrow]

I have another question though:

When you guys allow all or most sourcebooks, are you still able to use the monster manuals as the main source of serious opposition for the PC's? Or do you find that the only thing that can challenge the PC's ends up being custom-built NPC's who exploit all the same spells and equipment as the PC's?

No, but that tends to be far less a function of sources allowed, and more about the level of optimization involved. 

Of course, I'm not the best person to ask since I throw the monster creation rules out the window when I'm building encounters anyway

[littha]

More Sourcebooks =/= More power in the most part, there are nice feats out there for everyone and interesting new spells but even with all the books ever written you would struggle to make a Fighter/Barbarian/Monk/Ranger/Paladin.... as strong as a core Wizard or Druid. And even then a Wizard/Cleric/Druid with all the sources is stronger than without but as they could solve any encounter ever anyway that is fairy arbitrary.

[Unbeliever]

More Sourcebooks =/= More power in the most part, there are nice feats out there for everyone and interesting new spells but even with all the books ever written you would struggle to make a Fighter/Barbarian/Monk/Ranger/Paladin.... as strong as a core Wizard or Druid.

+1 to this

Generally, we almost always just use stock monster manual creatures.  Three fairly minor modifications are made.  (1)  We tend to go up a CR or 2, depending on the party composition.  E.g., a 10th level party will fight CR 12-14 monsters.  (2)  We tend to give them a lot more hit points, I do double.  This is in part b/c we use a generous rolling scheme for the PCs and so on.  (3)  Occasionally make small tweaks, such as giving them a couple of feats here or there (e.g., the Astral Stalker from MM3 might get Darkstalker) or a magic item or the equivalent.

And, that's with pretty highly optimized PCs all the time and every single 3.5 source open.  This has been said many many times but it bears repeating.  If something is broken or imbalanced, then it doesn't matter what book it's in.  I see no reason to take away something great like the Spell Compendium, which gives Paladins (and I assume Blackguards) a bunch of interesting spells that help them fill their niche, while leaving things like Polymorph and Planar Binding on the table just b/c they're in the PHB.  The SC does have a wealth of druid spell options, so fair warning, but once you're being honest and up front about game balance I don't think it's an issue.  I also don't think there's anything in there that tilts things any more than the PHB does already.  E.g., I prefer the Bite of X spells to either Polymorph or Wildshape any day. 

[ariasderros]

More Sourcebooks =/= More power in the most part, there are nice feats out there for everyone and interesting new spells but even with all the books ever written you would struggle to make a Fighter/Barbarian/Monk/Ranger/Paladin.... as strong as a core Wizard or Druid. And even then a Wizard/Cleric/Druid with all the sources is stronger than without but as they could solve any encounter ever anyway that is fairy arbitrary.

I agree that this is true. But like I said, "in my experience". People I know don't realize all of the tricks available in core, but once I open it up to everything, people start finding one or two in this place or that.

[littha]

More Sourcebooks =/= More power in the most part, there are nice feats out there for everyone and interesting new spells but even with all the books ever written you would struggle to make a Fighter/Barbarian/Monk/Ranger/Paladin.... as strong as a core Wizard or Druid. And even then a Wizard/Cleric/Druid with all the sources is stronger than without but as they could solve any encounter ever anyway that is fairy arbitrary.

I agree that this is true. But like I said, "in my experience". People I know don't realize all of the tricks available in core, but once I open it up to everything, people start finding one or two in this place or that.

Never really had that issue myself, possibly because my players usually build healbot clerics and blaster wizards...

[ariasderros]

More Sourcebooks =/= More power in the most part, there are nice feats out there for everyone and interesting new spells but even with all the books ever written you would struggle to make a Fighter/Barbarian/Monk/Ranger/Paladin.... as strong as a core Wizard or Druid. And even then a Wizard/Cleric/Druid with all the sources is stronger than without but as they could solve any encounter ever anyway that is fairy arbitrary.

I agree that this is true. But like I said, "in my experience". People I know don't realize all of the tricks available in core, but once I open it up to everything, people start finding one or two in this place or that.

Never really had that issue myself, possibly because my players usually build healbot clerics and blaster wizards...

Actually, with only one munchkin experience, me too. That's what I'm saying though. As those people casually flip through a book here or there, once in a while, something just jumps out at them. They find one of the tricks. And my job as DM gets more complicated.

[veekie]

On the OP's topic, the shapeshift druid's just fine in that particular group, with the only change I'd advocate being leaving the effects of stat boosting items even if they are melded, for the reasons of A) less silly looking, because the take-off-change-put-on method winds up making you look dumb B) more manageable, because having to undo all those permanent stat mods is a pain in the ass.

Neither are really for mechanical reasons, the flexibility of swift action shapeshifting and spellcasting eliminate the need for further buffs, because you can always change back as a swift action, cast and then change again next round. You do not need natural spell because you have better. AND, you can still use still/silent spells if you for some reason want to insist on casting in a beast form. The druid still remains 1.5 classes in one.

[Halinn]

Personally, I think it feels quite silly switching back and forth to cast. I'd let the druid have natural spell work with shapeshifting.

[veekie]

Well, the question there is needs and wants.
The shapeshift druid definitely does not need the ability. Natural spell is available in part because of the limited number of wild shape uses, if you shift, and you shifted back to cast, you lost one use of wild shape, as well as a standard action just to switch competencies(ignoring that others can't switch competencies at all, or at least takes 8 hours to). The shapeshift druid can change whenever, so no problems right?

Whereas you here would be trading no significant actions(you won't even have swift actions to use in place of the shifting for a while), for significant flex.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Yeah, that's the thing.   Natural Spell is really nice for a normal wildshape druid, due to what you said.

For a shapeshift druid, turning back and forth can be done infinitely, so it's not a real concern there.  So the feat is less useful to them than a normal druid.  So why not just make it available if he wants to spend the feat on it?

Is what I'm (and I assume Halinn is) saying.  If you were ok with a normal druid having it, why care here?  It's the same cost (feat) for less benefit.

[veekie]

Well, I didn't really like the core druid having it either, but then the thing was as mentioned before, three classes in one to begin with.

[Mooncrow]

Well, I didn't really like the core druid having it either, but then the thing was as mentioned before, three classes in one to begin with.

Meh, the gestalt of those three classes ends up being pretty powerful, but start limiting the spellcasting ability, and the druid's power withers away pretty quickly.  That's not to say that it wouldn't still work fine if the rest of the party is tier 3, but let's not mislead people into thinking that all three parts of the druid's power are equal  

And shifting back and forth isn't free - if you're going into melee (and why else would you be wanting to shapeshift while in combat?), and then have to pop out to cast a spell, the next round is likely to be pretty unpleasant for you until you can get back into your other form.  So, what you end up doing is using shapeshift to get away if the enemy manages to close in on you, and the rest of the time you spend in the vastly more effective caster form.   

[veekie]

Well yes, but again, you won't generally be casting much in a situation where you are in beast form(presumably in melee, since none of these forms are ranged), and the spells are great enough to begin with. So it would be likely in this order:
Party initates combat:
Human form, casting
Enemies close
Shift and melee

Enemy initiates combat:
Animal travel form
close or enemies close
Melee

Note that most of the forms do not present significant defensive advantages over a druid in medium armor with a shield until later, where defensive magic items play a greater role to contrast the boosts the forms give. They can be downright squishy.

[Kasz]

I have another question though:

When you guys allow all or most sourcebooks, are you still able to use the monster manuals as the main source of serious opposition for the PC's? Or do you find that the only thing that can challenge the PC's ends up being custom-built NPC's who exploit all the same spells and equipment as the PC's?

I barely ever give my NPC's equipment, claws and carapace over swords and armour. Due to the fact that my PC's tend to loot / skin / gather everything of value, they'll go so far as to save money on having things crafted by dragging armour and swords, having them melted down and trying to haggle a discount from the base price if they supply the iron or w/e.

It's difficult to stay to the wealth by level when they can basically just kill a same level adventurer and double their wealth by level. It's not "realistic" to make this against the rules, or make it so they cannot do this ever. Luckily my players agreed to my gentleman's agreement of explaining you motivations behind any questionable actions and my right to edit alignments

Just customise scores, look at Ras Al Ghul's guide to creating monsters in the handbook section, apply templates and whatnot. It's REALLY simple to take the stats of a mob from the monster manual and just add construct immunities or undead immunities to it and voila, you've upped the CR by making a robot or undead version. The guide has much better ways of doing stuff like that.

[Halinn]

I barely ever give my NPC's equipment, claws and carapace over swords and armour. Due to the fact that my PC's tend to loot / skin / gather everything of value, they'll go so far as to save money on having things crafted by dragging armour and swords, having them melted down and trying to haggle a discount from the base price if they supply the iron or w/e.

Sure. They can get the price of the base item, excluding the masterwork component, down to 1/3rd. They can save as much as 66 gp if they want a two-bladed sword. You could even let them save 1000 gp on a suit of full plate, but only if they're prepared to wait the months it will take for the smith to craft it.

It's difficult to stay to the wealth by level when they can basically just kill a same level adventurer and double their wealth by level. It's not "realistic" to make this against the rules, or make it so they cannot do this ever. Luckily my players agreed to my gentleman's agreement of explaining you motivations behind any questionable actions and my right to edit alignments

Sure. Just make it clear that anything the players do, the GM can do against them. A group of higher level adventuring NPCs might just decide that they want to get their next paycheck an easier way than going through a dungeon.

[Rejakor]

Your current fix for the druid will have his power level higher than the rest of the party, depending on optimization levels, but within tolerances.  Don't give him any more buffs.


I completely ignore the monster manuals except as a source of ideas.  I write all the monsters and enemies for my games from scratch, but that's because that's easy for me, if it wasn't i'd probably customize monster chassises.   I ignore CR and just eyeball their effective strength(s).  I just find it easier than fucking around with CR and whatnot.

For example, against a party of;
3rd level warblade
3rd level witch w/ familar
3rd level crossbow rogue w/ a cursed greatsword that he had to use
3rd level healbot cleric
and an absentee 3rd level summoner wizard

I put together this encounter as a boss fight/finale;
2 x 6 1st and 2nd level warriors
1 x 3rd level expert/2nd level mob boss w/ crossbow with exploding bolts
1 x 7th level Artificer with armour that gave him fast climbing and 6 natural attacks and +16 total grapple mod and constrict, and a potion cocktail powerup injection
1 x 6th level necromancer w/ Magic Jar as a contingency
1 x Corpse Beast, i.e. modified lesser flesh golem being used as a mount by the necromancer
1 x 3rd level magewright w/ a hover platform controlled with UMD checks
1 x cache of repeat-fire blackpowder weapons in a storeroom (could be used by either side, although the warriors know that they are there and the PCs don't)
1 x group of reinforcements in the form of; 1 2nd level expert, 1 warrior1/expert1, 3 warrior 1's (and the party's wizard)



The PCs nearly died so many times, but they managed to pull through.  That was a too-hard encounter on my part, but it gives you an idea of the way I design encounters.  The fight was in an underground room with two levels, a staircase, a giant elven crystal monolith artifact, control consoles, storerooms, a secret passage, and with the enemies not knowing the party was there.

I've also put parties up against;

A huge cistern with dropaway floor and wall hangings that are animated objects with levels in ninja who can use each other as weapons with the only exit blocked by an endless flaming stairs trap

Magma elementals living in a pool of lava using heat to create 'tunnels' of magma to magmaswim through and attack from the walls and floor

One hundred goblin archers, a goblin swordsage, 3 themed orc warblades, an orc sorcsage, a hezrou blackguard riding a dire rhino, and an orc shaman specializing in illusions

A single spear fighter using sidestep, robilar's gambit, reach, elbow and knee knives, elusive target, evasion and mettle to basically stymie the party

5 young adult dragons of each of the chromatic colours.  Against a level 5 party.

Siege weapon and bow using goblins in a covered gulch with a rideby attack horde of wolf riders and blindfighting raging barbarian 1 ogres with mindsight Blue goblins sitting on their heads, while trained bat swarms slowly bleed the PCs and many crude traps slow their advance (against a CR 12 party)

EDIT:  Oh, and against a CR 15 party (quite weak though)

300 heavily armoured fighter 3 dwarves (200 tower shield cover with teamwork and phalanx fighting feats infantry, 100 poison wind grenadiers and arbalestiers)
6 groups of themed level 10 dwarven heroes (alchemist with bombs, wizard with wands, rapier fighter axe fighter spear fighter wings of cover wings of flurry sorc Force Missile Mage wizard rogues rangers druids) (they used the alchemist's corpse as a bomb and blew up about ~50 dwarves and one dwarven hero group)
8 dwarves riding some MMIII monster dog with swallow whole and 200hp and a fear gaze or something
8 dwarven siege cannon
a dwarven sapper team
some dwarven field medics and ward-based cleric/runesmiths
1 runescarred berserker with antimagic field (Slayer)(epic duel between the hengeyokai frenzied berserker warshaper and this guy)

in a fairly narrow underground stone corridor spiral staircase thing the party was resting on (4th or 5th encounter of the day).