Author Topic: [3.5] '%' on hit effect on a weapon.  (Read 6995 times)

Offline Kasz

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[3.5] '%' on hit effect on a weapon.
« on: March 19, 2012, 06:05:27 AM »
One of my players has enquired about a weapon that might have a random percent chance to have an 'on hit' effect. He's an MMO player and this is his first DnD campaign so I know where he's coming from. MMO's are different to DnD in that they don't have per/day it's just 5% chance to do X and what not.

I don't see a base percent chance to stun on a hammer as unreasonable though, or a bleed on a sword but as far as I am aware there's no real way to price such an item as the pricing is based on uses/day.

Are there any items people can think of that are percentage on hit rather than /day? Perhaps these can be used as a guideline.

I have no problem telling my player "No, try this instead" but I've told them all I don't mind creating one or two custom items for them to find or encounter and this player hasn't asked for anything until now and we're level 11. If there aren't any guidelines for creating an item like this it'd be easy enough to drop in a /day weapon of the same effect instead.

Offline ariasderros

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Re: [3.5] '%' on hit effect on a weapon.
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2012, 06:46:19 AM »
In D&D, when they want a random chance on a hit, they use the attack roll. That is why Vorpal doesn't "proc" on any critical threat, but instead only on a 20. That is a 5% chance of auto-killing most enemies.

I do not recall any other examples off the top of my head, but if you end up cusomizing this, that's how it would be done. Just take a bunch of other weapon effects, change them in such a way.

As an example: take the paralyzing quality out of BoEF. It's a +2 quality that causes your weapon to "proc" a will save on every hit, DC 17 or be paralyzed. Then make that so that it triggers on a 19 or 20 on the attack roll, but doesn't allow a save, and only lasts for 1 round.
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Offline Tr011

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Re: [3.5] '%' on hit effect on a weapon.
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2012, 09:17:19 AM »
This has one major disadvantage: If you have a keen sword with a 5% chance of X, 5% chance of Y and 10% chance of Z you would either get no effect at all or you get some or all effects (19-20) and roll for a critical hit. So i.e. it would be useless on a vorpal weapon to get another 5% chance since the enemy will be most likely dead anyways.
Maybe you use another d20 seperatly for a % chance. So you roll a green die for your attack and a red die to see if your 15% chance for extra fire damage progs.

Offline wotmaniac

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Re: [3.5] '%' on hit effect on a weapon.
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2012, 09:20:27 AM »
ariasderros kinda hit on it .... tying it to something like crit might do the trick; that gets you your % chance -- it seems to be the easiest analog for what he's looking for.  There are tonnes of weapon abilities (especially in the MIC) that do special stuff on a crit.

Offline ariasderros

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Re: [3.5] '%' on hit effect on a weapon.
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2012, 09:32:34 AM »
@ troll and Wot
The reason I referenced Vorpal is because it has nothing to do with crit. A Disciple of Dispater using dual aptitude vorpal kukri still only gets Vorpal's bonus on a natural 20.

...and the reason for using the attack roll is to reduce the number of dice that are needed to be rolled.

B/c it would be far more evenly distributed if you gave every ability it's own die roll for activation, but then you are rolling 5 different dice on every attack, and trying to keep track of what each one was for.

Yes, tying them all into one die is a little all-or-nothing, but it is a major headache reducer. Don't believe me? Run a game where everyone is dual-wielding Vorpal, Paralyzing (the variant above) weapons and are asking to roll the attack Vorpal chance and Paralyzing chance all separately each time. Even if they roll three differently cloured dice simultaneously, it will still manage to slow things down.

More time rolling dice = less time describing the combat and roll-playing.
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Offline wotmaniac

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Re: [3.5] '%' on hit effect on a weapon.
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2012, 09:35:32 AM »
Point taken.

I just had another thought ... could you maybe have a special effect happen whenever you roll, say, max damage on the damage die?  Just a thought.

Offline ariasderros

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Re: [3.5] '%' on hit effect on a weapon.
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2012, 09:47:40 AM »
I just had another thought ... could you maybe have a special effect happen whenever you roll, say, max damage on the damage die?  Just a thought.

hmm, that is how some of the qualities aught to work anyway, now that you bring it up.

Cool idea Wot!
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Offline Kasz

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Re: [3.5] '%' on hit effect on a weapon.
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2012, 09:50:17 AM »
Definately some good thoughts here, I'll discuss it with the player and then it'll find it's way into the world somehow... providing they don't mess up irreversibly ;)

Offline weenog

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Re: [3.5] '%' on hit effect on a weapon.
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2012, 01:18:50 PM »
Maybe give him a custom weapon that automatically fires one of those semi-crappy ToB strikes on every attack, the ones that are semi-crappy because they allow a saving throw to negate the cool stuff, with a relatively low DC.
"Whoops, forgot to roll my fire and holy damage."
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Offline Maat Mons

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Re: [3.5] '%' on hit effect on a weapon.
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2012, 05:18:17 PM »
Some weapons have special effects that allow a save.  This generally winds up being a 5% chance per hit of having the effect, because creatures will only fail the save on a natural 1, after a point. 

Stun bolts (Shining South) deal damage as normal and additionally stun a creature for 1d6 rounds if it fails a DC 20 will save.  It costs 9,630 gp for 50.  Generally, 50 units of magic ammunition and 1 normal magic weapon have the same price, after adjusting for base weapon cost. 

Offline Tshern

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Re: [3.5] '%' on hit effect on a weapon.
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2012, 06:42:43 PM »
Point taken.

I just had another thought ... could you maybe have a special effect happen whenever you roll, say, max damage on the damage die?  Just a thought.
Would probably prompt the player to use very small weapons to maximise his probabilities though. Most weapon damage doesn't come from the base damage anyway, so this would be ridiculously easy to optimise.
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Offline wotmaniac

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Re: [3.5] '%' on hit effect on a weapon.
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2012, 06:58:44 PM »
Point taken.

I just had another thought ... could you maybe have a special effect happen whenever you roll, say, max damage on the damage die?  Just a thought.
Would probably prompt the player to use very small weapons to maximise his probabilities though. Most weapon damage doesn't come from the base damage anyway, so this would be ridiculously easy to optimise.
Yeah, I thought about that ..... I'm sure that there's something to be done about it.  Maybe have the effect scale based on the size of the die?
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Offline SneeR

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Re: [3.5] '%' on hit effect on a weapon.
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2012, 07:50:52 PM »
It's true that having an effect activate on the roll of X or above allows exact % chance; however, what if you want it to activate more than 5% of the time yet less than 10%? Between 19 and 20?
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Offline wotmaniac

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Re: [3.5] '%' on hit effect on a weapon.
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2012, 08:03:05 PM »
Play Rolemaster?  :P

Offline weenog

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Re: [3.5] '%' on hit effect on a weapon.
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2012, 08:46:08 PM »
It's true that having an effect activate on the roll of X or above allows exact % chance; however, what if you want it to activate more than 5% of the time yet less than 10%? Between 19 and 20?

If you're that picky, you just roll a golfball along with every attack.
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Offline dman11235

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Re: [3.5] '%' on hit effect on a weapon.
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2012, 08:59:36 PM »
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Offline Halinn

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Re: [3.5] '%' on hit effect on a weapon.
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2012, 01:23:36 AM »
If you want a larger range of numbers, going from a d20 to a d100 (usually done with 2d10) is pretty much just a question of going *5 on all things, then if you want to fiddle around do +-2 to the resulting static numbers.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: [3.5] '%' on hit effect on a weapon.
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2012, 02:25:34 AM »
Are there any items people can think of that are percentage on hit rather than /day? Perhaps these can be used as a guideline.
Only Vorpel comes to mind and from there you actually have a decent idea. For instance we can derive a 5% auto kill vs most monsters is equal to the scaling cost of a +5 enhancement bonus. Here is a broken down thought train to consider with some suggestions.

1.
So what else is nearly auto kill? Damage of course. Like a Pit Fiend has 225hp, Balor 290, Solar 209, TDs kind of range in the 400ish area but lets name a value lower than that and call those out 'miss' window like headless creatures. So an effect that deals around 200~300 damage is likened to auto kill. This approach is also better comparable and more likely to appeal to an MMO Player (moar DPS!) then trying to figure out save or suck debuffers as well.

2.
If we further type cast it we can limit the window a little bit more and even branch out a verity of abilities. For example there are five basic energy types; acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic, or even the three special ones; force, negative, and positive. While ultimately we have a series cycle of vorpel rolls that deal 250ish damage, they can be flavored differently and further tweaked based on the elemental concept. Likewise there are more creatures immune to Vorpel than there are none-epic creatures with more than 250hp so the elemental addition brings resistances and immunities into play.

3.
Bottom line is it needs to feel special. This little effect needs to feel special, Vorpel's "I rolled a 20, meh he dies" is nice but telling the player to roll a handful of dice is even better. A tad slower yeah, but it feels more AWESOME! Like wise you would need enough varency between the elements to attract attention. Like the one dealing fire damage sets them on fire, or better yet covers them in lava!, while the cold one doesn't do coated in ice.

4.
So stealing some of DDO's name flare, here is three suggestions to consider.
Crushing Wave: Upon a roll of natural 20 and confirmed critical hit this weapon releases a torrent of water from the deep sea that surrounds the subject hit by this weapon. The water is both fridge and heavily pressurized dealing 5d8 cold and 5d8 bludgeon damage each round for five rounds. ~ avg 225 total, 45 per round which may prevent spellcasting.

Lightning Strike: Upon a roll of natural 20 and confirmed critical hit this weapon emits a powerful lightning bolt dealing an additional 10d6+200 electricity damage to the subject. The effect is loud, providing a +20 bonus to listen checks to detect the battle, and bright illuminating the battle field as if a torch were burning in the area of attack for one round.~ avg 235 done in a single round.

Magma Surge: Upon a roll of natural 20 and confirmed critical hit the subject hit by this weapon is covered in lava for two rounds. Treat them as if they were fully submersed in lava while covered by this effect, dealing 20d6 fire damage each round and an additional 10d6 for 1d3 rounds after this effect ends. ~ avg 192ish total, 45 per round which may prevent spellcasting.

All effects are considered a +5 enhancement requiring the crafter to have a CL of 18 and any one 9th level spell with the appropriate descriptor.

5.
And finally, damage is a scaling effect. Scaling here being an operative word. If you could draw a line through the enhancement costs, and I'm ballparking this but if +3's price is generally half of a +5er then you can halve the damage or so and create a 'lesser' version for lower level characters to pick up earlier.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2012, 02:35:15 AM by SorO_Lost »

Offline Maat Mons

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Re: [3.5] '%' on hit effect on a weapon.
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2012, 02:48:52 AM »
Here are some things that add extra effects on critical hits. 

Bodyfeeder (+3): gain temp HP equal to half damage, Magic Item Compendium
Consumptive Burst (+3): negative level, Planar Handbook
Cursespewing (+3): -4 attacks, saves, and skills for 1 minute, Magic Item Compendium
Desiccating Burst (+1 synergy): fatigued, Magic Item Compendium
Doom Burst (+2): shaken for 5 rounds, Magic Item Compendium
Enfeebling (+1): 1d6+2 str damage (allows SR), Book of Exalted Deeds
Enervating (+2): negative level, Magic Item Compendium
Mindfeeder (+1): gain temp power points equal to 1/5 damage, Magic Item Compendium
Serrated (+600 gp): 1 bleed damage for 1d4 rounds, Dragon 358 p43
Souldrinking (+1 synergy) gain 5 temp HP and +2 damage, Magic Item Compendium
Weakening (+1): -4 penalty str, Magic Item Compendium

Offline Kasz

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Re: [3.5] '%' on hit effect on a weapon.
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2012, 06:35:43 AM »
Thanks for all the input guys. There's some really good ideas in here.

1. I'm going to drop in some random loot that has an effect on a roll of max damage. Not sure what yet but we'll see.

2. I'm going to allow the player to find an artificer to place a magical gadget into the handle of his rapier, which on a roll of 20 will paralyze the enemy for a round and add 1d4 electric, no save, (end of players next turn), which would allow a coup de grace if no one assists the paralyzed foe. This will be a +3 enchancement unless he's clever about it and gets the party gather hound to sniff out an artificier of sufficient skill to do it as a +2.
Creatures immune to electric damage are also immune to this effect.

The player's a trapsmith/duskblade and loves items, gadgets, tools and electricity.

Thanks again all!