Ok, see I assume playing PF means no 3E stuff, cause if you allow all of 3E splat material in, all of PF is pointless because surely there's some 3E thing that does it better (aside from the freebie caster buffs, of course).
If it's PF only, what's available in 3E doesn't matter. If it's a mixed system game, yeah paladin and other martials got lots of buffs in the splats. But the already strong casters overall had even MORE buffs in those splats, so in terms of relative power, factoring in splats is kinda self-defeating. Anyway...
If that were true, they'd be a capable and competitive melee and just completely obliterate evil outsiders. They don't do that at all. In fact the 3.5 one does it better - Law Devotion, SC Spells, Battle Blessing. Still weak, but at least capable of killing evil outsiders.
I disagree, they do obliterate evil with smite quite well now IME. And the key thing is they lost
nothing. PF Paladin is just across the board buffs. Unless you'd like to point out how it's not. Which means PF Paladin still has all the same class features to qualify for and/or swap for every single thing you just listed. If you're trying to compare 3E only Paladin w/ PF-only Paladin... not every 3E paladin will have access to all that stuff, while as everything I noted is core for PF paladin. Even if it is all allowed, aside from Battle Blessing and Rhino Rush (don't recall any other amazing SpC Pal-exclusive spells for them)...clerics can get that stuff and do it much better anyway.
Problem: You can just get your spellcasting from a Wis item and do that anyways, you're reliant entirely on full attacks but can't reliably get them, and DR is a gimp check (if it bothers you, you're a gimp). Move action smite detection seems fine until you remember the second point and that you're still not necessarily in front of them, and for giving the entire party a smite... somehow, I don't think a bunch of casters care.
What do you mean, get your casting from a wis item?
And you're not reliant on full attacks any more than any other melee. Your standard action attack w/ smite is still hurting a lot, and your mounted lance charge is good. And in PF smite works with ranged, so if you want, you don't have to giv up full attacking at all.
DR isn't just a gimp check, even if you re power attacking 2H for lots of damage, not shaving 10-15 off every hit is still nice.
You can detect + move or detect + attack once or ready an attack, it's still a vast improvement from 3E where it went like, "crap, I don't have 3 rounds to determine if I should smite, guess I'll just hope he's evil."
Not all parties are 3/4 or greater casters. Yeah, it may not be the optimal party composition, but that doesn't mean in RL most groups don't have a bunch of people who attack physically. Hell, ray shooting casters also benefit.
As a swift action, they can negate half a hit. No, sorry, that doesn't cut it. Their AC is auto hit like everyone else, so not a factor, and the saves? Between the MAD nerfs and the save DC buffs they're just not able to keep up anymore. Lastly, curing minor effects is something doable with a Lesser Vigor wand and Healing Lorecall (which depending on how you read it can provide status removal with its regeneration, not just when you first cast it). Even if not though, how often do those effects come up?
My play experiences are much different than yours... AC is not "autohit" until high levels, and it still protects from iteratives / 2ndary naturals / power attack at that point IME.
And 10.5 (3d6) healed at level 6 or 21 healed at level 12 or whatever is often more than "half a hit." In any case, you're using swift actions to undo their attacks, so surely you admit that gives at least
some edge in action economy?
What MAD nerfs? Paladin is now a solidly 3 stat class (Str-Cha-Con), and benefits from a low modifier in dex and int but doesn't need them. In fact, he can dump int as low as he wants and due to how the min. skill points + human bonus skills + favored class bonus works, still end up with 3 skill points per level (and concentration no longer costs skill points).
Save DCs are buffed between guranteed 20 starting in casting stat and several class feature options giving more. But that's still "only" a few more points of DC. Paladin gets two good base saves (the worthless one is their bad save) and one of their most important stats to all saves. They may not save as easily as in 3E, but they're better off than most and it's still not "need a 20" levels of crazy...
True on Healing Lorecall (I'd say it only applies when cast, btw, not every round), but it's still a nice additional benefit that costs no spells and can be gained w/ a swift action. How often the conditions come up is highly DM/campaign dependent, of course.
And it isn't full level... why, again? Suppose it doesn't matter too much since you'll never see any Dispels, but... why?
Because they don't become casters till 4th level and barely get spells? Look, it's still a buff from 3E, ultimately.
Problem: Almost all of the good weapon properties are 3.5 non core.
Almost all the good everything is 3.5 non core. *shrug*
So they have... a first level spell?
It's a little more all encompasing than Prot. from Evil and won't waste an action to be cast. I said it was minor...
I can only assume you are being sarcastic. That feat is less than worthless. Taking absolutely nothing in that slot is better. It is in no way comparable to or competitive with even a simple Mage Slayer.
Agreed. The feat doing the work there is Mage Slayer. If you're letting in 3E material, there are plenty of other ways to mess up 5 ft steps that either won't cost a feat or are less limited than Step Up.
If you wasted a feat on Step Up, everything is laughing at you. Hell, a 3.5 Spiked Chain user with no feats is more likely to mess with a mage than a Step Up user is... which is to say not very, but still more than zero.
Side note: PF nerfed the bejesus out of this thing, too. Now it's an ineffectual exotic piercng 2d4 20/x2 finesse/trip/disarm weapon that gives NO REACH AT ALL. Which makes it plainly inferior to most other MARTIAL weapons.
PF was basically written by the "spiked chain is broken" fan club, so not that surprising.
