Why are the exact problems people have with Pathfinder?

[Fadier]

Your whole post was spot-on, but this line was really a great 4 link summary of just why people experienced w/ PF capable of rational thought claim "casters got buffed."

Why thanks, I was going to do more but did not want to turn it into a rant.

My biggest annoyance with the Rogue is that it was a stealth nerf (this might not have been intended but its still annoying). I went into Pathfinder thinking the Rogue was buffed, but you have to look under its shiny coating to realise that your never going to full sneak attack anyone. From the nerf to Blink to the nerf to Tumble its a really sad to see a tier 4 drop so low.

To be honest I kind of like the skill system in Pathfinder, it benefits classes with 4 or less skills per level. This boosts all the classes but gives the Rogue the shaft. At least your Fighter can be mostly competent with UMD or even Acrobatics! Sadly this is the same for Wizards.

Also the Rogue is not the best skill monkey now, the Bard is. With Versatile Performance the Bard gets the same amount of skills as a Rogue at level 2 and it only gets worse (for the Rogue) from there, the Bard gets to use his primary modifier for all those skills. With Acrobatics/Fly/Sense Motive all based off cha makes the bard more SAD wrt being a skill monkey. Just wait for the Bards choices in perform skills to grow with splat books.

The other thing I forgot to mention is Pathfinder heavily nerfed some decent mundane feats, noteably Mage Slayer and Stand Still. Stand Still is rendered useless by the CMB/D system as generally big creature's Reflex saves suck but their CMD is insane. And Mage Slayer, sorry 'Disruptive', is harder to qualify for (Fighter 6 or Barbarian 8 plus a rage power) and does very little. Hey at least it has an upgrade like the improved/greater combat feats right? Right?

Yeh thought not.



I hate ending on a negative note so here is a positive one

I will note one undeniable positive from Pathfinder: The Paladin class.

+1.

I really like the Paladin in Pathfinder, sure he is no Wizard but the class seems so much more streamlined. Its not like the Monk who is an odd assortment of 'class features' but each one is a nice assortment of synergistic features which do not intrude on one another in combat like the Monks ones do.


Hmmmm, not as positive as I ment it (Damn you Monks!!) but it will have to do.

[veekie]

Many monsters have to move and attack, is pounce as easily obtainable as it is in 3.5?

Off the top of my head? No.

In 3.5 it's either depends on race, form alterations, those gauntlets only specific weapon in CW, and a level dip into Barbarian. There is probably some more obscure ones but meh.

PF's Barbarian's Pounce is level 10+.
I don't think any weapons grant it but I don't actually know PF so don't take this at token value.
Poly effects are totally revamped so Alter Self can't do it anymore but Polymorph still can.
Racially thanks to PF's removal of LA it's should still obtainable at low levels, if your willing to play a an animal or something.

Overall, I'd say it's harder. But you should have known that, PF nerfs Mundanes is a good general rule of thumb

The monster end, I can supply, having used them quite a bit(all hail the Monsters By CR part of the PFRD!). Monster offense overall, is low, especially out of the book, with caster monsters generally having only about a third to a quarter of their default spells dedicated to combat useful stuff. Save DCs are generally low-ish(because PF monsters tend to have lower HD/CR), you can probably expect to fail about 40% of the saves in your weak save. The exceptions, like the big cats, are relatively squishy, so if they do pounce, and you're alive, they're dead.

Monster hp overall, is effectively lower as well, power attack(PF power attack that is), sneak attack or even the misc bonuses like the Fighter's chew through them fairly smoothly in two rounds with stock standard PCs. Partly because of the power attack change, monster peak output does not skyrocket with attack bonuses of improbable. However, its somewhat harder to achieve one-hit-kills. Not impossible though. Optimization finds a way.

[Basket Burner]

Now consider there are almost certainly multiple hits, especially at level 12. Using a Swift action, which has far more uses than minor healing to negate part of a single multi part action is called losing momentum.

Many monsters have to move and attack, is pounce as easily obtainable as it is in 3.5? Also, Pathfinder seems to have nerfed several monsters like earth elementals and elephants so that they seem to deal a little less damage than their 3.5 counter parts

They outreach you, especially in PF. PCs for all intents and purposes can't get Pounce... but melee enemies are buffed, at least as it pertains to killing non casters.

For a Swift action heal to be meaningful it'd have to provide a far more substantial effect. At the absolute minimum its current effect * 4... and even then, that's shaky. Really though if you're worried about healing you're doing it wrong - PF non casters are so squishy they end up solidly in one roundable territory (even if they wouldn't in 3.5) and that leaves no chance for even a full heal to do anything at all.

[TC X0 Lt 0X]

My Group uses both 3.x and Pathfinder at the table. I can agree that it does not do much in fixing what was wrong with 3.5, but it does have quite a few nifty options in it worth keeping it around.

Why is it difficult to port Pathfinder Content to 3.5? Beyond the Skills and some other weird mechanics which usually have their 3.5 equivalents anyways, most of it converts over pretty well.

[X-Codes]

The Paladin class is probably the only class that is really, notably more powerful in PF.  That said, I still think it's 'meh'.  It lost Turn Undead, which gave it access to a lot of the Cleric's neat tricks, which is a real downer given the increased focus on Charisma.

The rest of the caster classes are really not significantly better.  They can juice their saves a little more, but that's not terribly important.  Anyone worth anything uses non-save spells, anyway.  Also, while the Fighter CLASS is better, all those bonus numbers the Fighter CLASS came out of Power Attack, which now sucks donkey balls, so, overall, a PF Fighter is still only breaking even with a Core 3.5e Fighter.  Also, the Barbarian, Paladin, Ranger, and Monk all suffered stealth nerfs in this field, too, since they all also relied on Power Attack to deal notable damage, but didn't get the numbers backup that Fighters did.

That said, casters are really more-or-less the same.  Some spells got nerfed, some got passed over, and their new class features really just about compensate for the spells that got nerfed and give them more interesting stuff to do than pick an extra feat every 5 levels.

Overall: Barbarian got nerfed, Bard got nerfed, Cleric is about the same, Druid is about the same, Fighter is about the same, Monk got nerfed, Paladin is about the same, Ranger got nerfed, Rogue got nerfed HARD, Sorcerer is about the same, and Wizard is about the same.

[Phoenix00]

Its a new system to learn and they didn't fix the balance.  So why waste time learning a new system?

I find it is easier and more fun to adapt fun things from pathfinder to 3.5 rather than the other way around.

[veekie]

On the note of Power Attack, it was only really nerfed if you can dump your whole BAB into it, since the exchange is more efficient, you get more damage out of each point of attack bonus lost, at the cost of optimizability, as you cannot use it to translate enormous to-hits(like monsters tend to have) into enormous damage. It winds up being more newbie friendly.

Compare:
3.5:
2H = Ratio 1 atk : 2 dmg
1H = Ratio 1 atk : 1 dmg
light = Ratio 1 atk : 0 dmg
Max damage: BAB x2
BAB 20 = 40 damage

PF:
2H = Ratio 1 atk: 3 dmg
1H = Ratio 1 atk: 2 dmg
light= Ratio 1 atk: 1 dmg
Max damage = (1+(BAB/4)) x 3 = 3+(3/4)BAB damage
BAB 20 = 18

[SorO_Lost]

On the note of Power Attack, it was only really nerfed if you can dump your whole BAB into it,

In 3E, effects like Shock Trooper or even Waithful Strike says you can dump your entire BAB, likewise Leap Attack says you can gain a max of +80 damage from Power Attack, Frenzy Berserker disagrees but isn't as viable.

There is another thread floating around here asking about damage multipliers, seems PF didn't like those. Good for them really since charging was over the top anyway, but still. Without charging classes like the Barbarian and Fighter have no real damage sources do they?

[Basket Burner]

On the note of Power Attack, it was only really nerfed if you can dump your whole BAB into it, since the exchange is more efficient, you get more damage out of each point of attack bonus lost, at the cost of optimizability, as you cannot use it to translate enormous to-hits(like monsters tend to have) into enormous damage. It winds up being more newbie friendly.

Every melee worth anything could and did sac their entire BAB in order to be able to plow through those massive HP pools in a reasonable timeframe. Straight up nerf, and a heavy one at that, even before you account for the multipliers.

Monsters, meanwhile were usually only able to PA for a few points and still hit on a 2. Now they PA for a few points, still hit on a 2, and do much more damage. Straight up buff. Also makes AC entirely worthless, as the only thing it did was prevent things from PAing hard enough to make not one rounded kills into one rounded kills, and now AC 10 or AC maxed you still get PAed and hit on a 2. Difference is the former saves you a lot of wasted resources.

[lans]

Pathfinder monsters seem to not hit as hard on a base. Take a look at their hill giant or elementals at the cr 7 range. Neither can PA and hit on a 2 against even 1st level characters.
Edit- Tigers and lions hit way harder in PF

[Basket Burner]

Pathfinder monsters seem to not hit as hard on a base. Take a look at their hill giant or elementals at the cr 7 range. Neither can PA and hit on a 2 against even 1st level characters.
Edit- Tigers and lions hit way harder in PF

You're still mad about those low tier guys getting obliterated aren't you?

Between PA and the natural attack buffs they're doing a lot more damage whereas you're doing less damage. So aside from making the squishies squishier and entirely irrelevant offensively and making AC useless, nothing has changed.

[RobbyPants]

Edit- Tigers and lions hit way harder in PF

I was just looking through their SRD. At a casual glance, it looks like they made secondary natural attacks do full Str damage and only incur a -2 penalty to hit instead of -5. Is this across the board, or did I miss a feat or special ability or something.

I didn't see Multiattack in the feats, but maybe I overlooked it.

[StreamOfTheSky]

What PF did was make the most common natural attacks(like claws and bite) primary, changed the rules so that ALL primary natural weapons remain as such no matter how many you add (*cue smiling summoner's eidolon*), and ruled that if you only attack with a single natural weapon (like a wolf), you get 1.5x str bonus to damage and use 2H power attack ratio.

So many monsters do hit much harder now.  Side note: Even though unarmed strike is a single natural weapon, monks do not get the 1.5x str and 3-1 PA ratio, even when NOT using flurry (which hard codes you to 1x str mod on all attacks regardless).

[StreamOfTheSky]

The Paladin class is probably the only class that is really, notably more powerful in PF.  That said, I still think it's 'meh'.  It lost Turn Undead, which gave it access to a lot of the Cleric's neat tricks, which is a real downer given the increased focus on Charisma.
Wizard is about the same.

It's not fair to say they (specifically) lost access... PF removed TU completely and replaced it with a feat option.  If implementing PF stuff, Paladin no more "lost it" than cleric did. It was replaced with channel energy, which Paladin no longer takes a -3 penalty towards level on.

And wizard is much stronger now.  They can still cast spells from prohibited schools and can prohibit divination.  And they get powerful school powers for class features, whether they prestige out or not.

[Garryl]

What PF did was make the most common natural attacks(like claws and bite) primary, changed the rules so that ALL primary natural weapons remain as such no matter how many you add (*cue smiling summoner's eidolon*), and ruled that if you only attack with a single natural weapon (like a wolf), you get 1.5x str bonus to damage and use 2H power attack ratio.

Singular natural weapons giving 1.5*Str to damage is an old rule from 3.5. The two-handed PA ratio is new, I believe.

[veekie]

Straight from the bestiary.

[Basket Burner]

Edit- Tigers and lions hit way harder in PF

I was just looking through their SRD. At a casual glance, it looks like they made secondary natural attacks do full Str damage and only incur a -2 penalty to hit instead of -5. Is this across the board, or did I miss a feat or special ability or something.

I didn't see Multiattack in the feats, but maybe I overlooked it.

This is what I was getting at. Essentially everything gets free Multiattack and sometimes Improved Multiattack + more. So every melee enemy is now stronger, every melee PC is now weaker.

Those numbers are in no way accurate to anything at any time, ever. I have no idea why you even mentioned them veekie. For example despite being a full caster that will never swing its weapon it still has an attack bonus higher than 30, and still has better saves than that without doing anything at all (such as using its treasure).

[lans]

I vehemently protest BB's

every melee enemy is now stronger

,  but it looks like a chunk of them are.

[Basket Burner]

I vehemently protest BB's

every melee enemy is now stronger

,  but it looks like a chunk of them are.

All of them are. Since they all use natural weapons and all natural weapons are buffed, not to mention the PA nerf for everyone else is a buff for them.

[X-Codes]

On the note of Power Attack, it was only really nerfed if you can dump your whole BAB into it, since the exchange is more efficient, you get more damage out of each point of attack bonus lost, at the cost of optimizability, as you cannot use it to translate enormous to-hits(like monsters tend to have) into enormous damage. It winds up being more newbie friendly.

Compare:
3.5:
2H = Ratio 1 atk : 2 dmg
1H = Ratio 1 atk : 1 dmg
light = Ratio 1 atk : 0 dmg
Max damage: BAB x2
BAB 20 = 40 damage

PF:
2H = Ratio 1 atk: 3 dmg
1H = Ratio 1 atk: 2 dmg
light= Ratio 1 atk: 1 dmg
Max damage = (1+(BAB/4)) x 3 = 3+(3/4)BAB damage
BAB 20 = 18

The PF Fighter's exchange on PA is more efficient, but his attack bonuses are off the RNG, resulting in a lot of mediocre hits instead of a few stronger hits.  Overall, the CORE 3.5e Fighter, even with less efficient Power Attack, has a slight edge on the PF Fighter in terms of damage against average-AC targets.  However, against low-AC targets the damage very sharply swings in favor of the 3.5e Fighter, and against high AC targets it only swings slightly in favor of the PF Fighter.

Also, the non-core options for 3.5e Fighters have already been brought up, and since these radically increase the amount of attack bonus the Fighter can burn against ALL targets compared to the PF Fighter, he really leaves the PF Fighter in the dust.

The Paladin class is probably the only class that is really, notably more powerful in PF.  That said, I still think it's 'meh'.  It lost Turn Undead, which gave it access to a lot of the Cleric's neat tricks, which is a real downer given the increased focus on Charisma.
Wizard is about the same.

It's not fair to say they (specifically) lost access... PF removed TU completely and replaced it with a feat option.  If implementing PF stuff, Paladin no more "lost it" than cleric did. It was replaced with channel energy, which Paladin no longer takes a -3 penalty towards level on.

It's also not fair to say that Channel Energy is in any way, shape, or form a replacement for Turn Undead.  Channel Energy can only be fairly described in one way: shit.

And wizard is much stronger now.  They can still cast spells from prohibited schools and can prohibit divination.  And they get powerful school powers for class features, whether they prestige out or not.

In other words, wizards have 500 ways to win the game instead of 400.  You really consider that notable?