Swordsage questions about feats, BaB and maneuver choice.

[Leon]

I am currently playing in a Forgotten Realms campaing with some friends, and i roll with a Swordsage.
 
Leon (the Swordsage) is meant to be a two hander agile (but strength based) fighter, a Miyamoto Musashi pumped up with little shadow tricks up his sleeve.

Where i need quidance:

• The Swordsage has meduim BaB progression, and that hurts. I have been trying to eliminate maneuver choices that are based on full attacks or more attacks per round. Is this a solid choice? Bear in mind that i am strength based and not a two-weapon-fighter. If needed i can give a detailed list of maneuver/stance selection for critique and/or correction.
• Feats. I have eight as a human, and i want to make the best out of them. For now my choices are the prerequisites of Master of the Nine, Superior Unarmed Damage (for those nights you feel like punching something reaaally reaaally hard) and Quickdraw (it may be considered bad, i don't know, i like the iaido flavour). I considered dumping Quickdraw, but that leaves me with two empty slots that need filling with something that will power up my battle prowess. Suggestions?
• The above leads to the question: is Master of the Nine a solid choice for some one that will not take maneuvers from more than six disciplines? I believe it is, but i am not familiar with ToB in play.

Due to personal weirdness, i would prefer not mentioning magic item usage at all in suggestions, and not proposing multiclass builds, i do not like them, most of them at least. I seek to optimise a Swordsage 15/ Master of the Nine 5(?) character, that will need to be effective in low to mid levels and obviously in higher ones.

If more character details are needed ask and i will provide.

Thanks.

[Wiggins]

If you do go with Superior Unarmed Strike, check with your DM then consider stacking on Improved Natural Attack (Fist) rather than quick draw?

To me, Strength based suggests you should be taking feats with opposed Strength checks, maybe tripping or bull rushing, then concentrating on swift and immediate actions from Swordsage. There are lots of good counters, boosts and so forth.

[Leon]

Improved Natural Attack is surely a good idea, thanks. As for tripping and bullrushing, i do not really want to focus so much to get feats on them, and versions of these feats exist as maneuvers. It would probably be a waste to pick them. Charging on the other hand is good, if there are any good charge ideas that are feat-light.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I might have misunderstood your post; but if you are not going to take maneuvers outside the Swordsage's normal disciplines, why are you taking Master of the Nine? None of the class features are worth that feat expenditure IMO.

As for general feats, Power attack and perhaps Leap attack (which works incredibly well with Tiger claw jump strikes and also fits flavour-wise) are both excellent  choices, Adaptive style is sadly a feat tax for swordsage; but on the upside it does gives you a little more versatility with you maneuvers readied as you can get a new set every time you use it. As far as quickdraw goes if you have BAB +1 or more you can draw a weapon as part of a move action so technically you don't need quickdraw (I know you said you didn't like magic items; but there is a pretty cheap item, 300-ish GP that effectively gives you quickdraw)

[Leon]

Taking Master of the Nine is more of a fluffwise choice, but it does give nice bonuses even if you dont pick maneuvers from more than six disciplines. I failed to mention that i have traded Desert Wind with Iron Heart, and i do not like the feel of Desert Wind/ Devoted Spirit/ White raven. It is feat heavy as a prc, but i think it is better than 20 levels of swordsage.

[Unbeliever]

Master of 9 works best when paired with Warblade or Crusader.  If your goal is to play a Swordsage, then I'd just focus on that.

I find single attack strikes can be quite effective.  My most effective straight Swordsage builds involved getting massive unarmed damage, combined with the single attack strikes that multiply damage, and Flyby Attack.  I also threw in a Raging Mongoose and a potion/wand of Wraithstrike just in case I was getting mobbed. 

Finally, the Setting Sun stances can also be used really well for a dodgy defense.  As does Word Given Form Mastery -- if you're looking to burn feats that might be more rewarding than pre-reqing into Mo9. 

[Ziltoid]

I´ve always felt the ´Meditant´ build fits the ´Miyamoto/samurai stereotype´ pretty well, and its strategy of using one big attack per round fits with what you´ve been planning

Link: http://web.archive.org/web/20080331202911/http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=761366


The original is Warblade based, but Swordsage should work as well
Might wanna dip Cloistered Cleric 1 for Travel Devotion and Knowledge Devotion

Aside from that, take a look at the Iaijutsu Focus skill from Oriental Adventures



As for Mo9, in my experience it´s generally not worth the investment

[StreamOfTheSky]

Everything Unbeliever said.  I'd avoid Mo9.

Tiger Claw has some nice single target strikes.  I often make whisper gnome swordsages, so Soaring Raptor Strike is a nice pick.  Sudden Leap is useful to anyone.  Later on, Swooping Dragon is just crazy awesome.

Diamond Mind is littered with great single target strikes.  Mostly the insightful strike and X Nightmare Blade lines. Just do swap upgrades as higher level versions become available.

Stone Dragon mostly sucks, but Mountain Hammer (later consider swapping up to Ancient MH) and Crushing Vise both have no pre-reqs and are very useful.  The level 9 is subpar compared to most others, but also has no pre-reqs, which helps.

Desert Wind I would get Distracting Ember but basically ignore it for strikes.  Desert Tempest and Ring of Fire could be useful, though, as can the very awesome Searing Charge (think that's the name; the one that lets you fly up to the target).

Shadow Hand has pretty terrible strikes until later levels, though Shadow Blade Tech is good when you just absolutely need to hit and Shadow Garrote is a handy 60 ft ranged option.  Mostly should be used for invisibility and teleport buffs and some of the stances, though.

Setting Sun has some nice counters and stances.  The throw-based strikes can be good but require a size , str, and feat investment you may not be able to make.  Ignore all the fluff.  Other than the dex option, it's still trip.  So you need to be big for it to work.  And being big tends to lead to +str / -dex.

[Leon]

Thank you all for you replies.

Now, while most ideas are not bad at all, the Meditant is quite multiclassed, and while i am aware of Iaijutsu Focus, to use it i would need a dip in Samurai and Able learner (correct me if i am mistaken there).

As for the massive unarmed damage, i will probably get that, but still i cannot abandon my katana.

Lastly, despite the heavy feat investment and the loss of 1 BaB, i do not see how a Discipline Focus (defensive stance), +1 to initiative, Improved Evasion and Dual Boost (usable three times per day, and on a character with not that many boosts) can top three more maneuvers, one stance, Dual Stance (2xclass lvl rounds per day), +2 bonus to attacks while using any strike, changing stances when using counters (have several of those) and getting +6 damage for free.

If some one has such a powerfull feat selection that can top those (or if i miss something of course) i would be glad to check it out, and probably use it.

[Ziltoid]

the Meditant is quite multiclassed

Are you sure we´re talking about the same thing?
You only need 2 classes, the rest is optional

As for Iaijutsu Focus, it´ll still work as a cross-class skill, skills checks are ridiculously easy to boost

[Leon]

Is it not Warblade(Swordsage in my case)/Psionic Warrior/Crusader? As for Iaijutsu focus i might give it a try, through a dip or a talk about making it a class skill with my gm. Though it would almost definitely require Quickdraw as a feat. When you mention

boost

do you mean through magic items, feats or other ways?

[weenog]

Is it not Warblade(Swordsage in my case)/Psionic Warrior/Crusader? As for Iaijutsu focus i might give it a try, through a dip or a talk about making it a class skill with my gm. Though it would almost definitely require Quickdraw as a feat. When you mention

boost

do you mean through magic items, feats or other ways?

Items are the most straightforward way.  You can get exactly the boost you want for a very specific cost, as long as you can pony up the dough and don't get greedy (costs start small but do climb).

According to the PHB (Tools and Skill Kits), you can get a Masterwork Tool of whatever for 50 gp, that's a +2 circumstance bonus on your skill check.

If you look in the DMG, magic armor section, at the Shadow, Silent Moves, and Slick abilities, as well as the Improved and Greater versions of each, you'll notice a pattern, one that's consistent enough you can easily break it down and apply it to other things.  In each case a competence bonus to a skill check costs bonus squared * 150 gp.

So if you wanted a +10 to Iaiajutsu Focus checks item, it'd be 50 (masterwork tool) + 9,600 (8*8*150) = 9,650 gp to get an item that gives you +2 circumstance and +8 competence to IF checks (different bonus types, so they stack).  If you're like me, and you've got a character with +8 to Use Magic Device checks who needs to be able to fake an alignment (DC 30) even on a natural 1, it'd be 50 (masterwork tool) + 54,150 (19*19*150) = 54,200 gp to get Magic Items For Dummies, a handy little book that provides a whopping +21 to UMD checks.

[Halinn]

A skill bonus is actually bonus squared * 100 gp, as per the Creating Magic Items guidelines

[weenog]

A skill bonus is actually bonus squared * 100 gp, as per the Creating Magic Items guidelines

Even better... though judging by the guy's responses, I think he's probably in one of those roleplay vs roll-play divide groups where if you want to do anything useful, you have to do it in the most inefficient, ass backwards way possible, else you're a dirty munchkin.

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go revise my character's budget.

[Leon]

Weenog i would like to hear what you mean as "inneficient, ass backwards way possible", even if it gets off topic. If you are referring to me asking for builds that are not multiclassed (not much at least) and not dependant on magic items, that is a totally personal whim, i dislike both, not my group.

[Ziltoid]

Is it not Warblade(Swordsage in my case)/Psionic Warrior/Crusader? As for Iaijutsu focus i might give it a try, through a dip or a talk about making it a class skill with my gm. Though it would almost definitely require Quickdraw as a feat. When you mention

boost

do you mean through magic items, feats or other ways?

Like I said, most of the multi-classing is optional. The only classes you really need are Swordsage and Psychic Warrior. Everything else is just extra topping, sure it helps, but it isn't required to pull of the basic strategy effectively


As for skill boosting, for starters there are these options:
-Masterwork Item: +2 (see previous posters)
-+5/+10/+xxx Competence Item: see previous posters as well
-Item Familiar feat from Unearthed Arcana, also available from the SRD: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm
Also fits great fluffwise with an ancestral weapon, kinda like a Kensei without actual Kensei levels


And yes, Quick Draw would be quite useful for this

[Wiggins]

Masterwork items replace an item you would normally be using for the skill check.

So it's easy enough to argue for a Spot check you could have a Masterwork Telescope that would only work if it's something a long way off, but might also work for Search checks if you were searching for a town from a treetop.

For a Search check it could be a Masterwork Magnifying glass that wouldn't work if you were searching for the best Inn or Shop, only for Traps and Secret Doors and the like.

I can't imagine an Iajatsu Focus item, or a Tumble one.

+ Competence Items are probably the way to go.

I too don't like builds that rely on items, but I still like to know what items I should get to improve my character.

[Leon]

That was my original thought. What masterwork item helps you slice something if not a weapon? Also, any thoughts about the maneuver/feat question? As in synergy from feats to maneuvers, and if single strikes are better from ones that let you attack multiple times, based on the swordsage's medium BaB?

[Ziltoid]

That was my original thought. What masterwork item helps you slice something if not a weapon? Also, any thoughts about the maneuver/feat question? As in synergy from feats to maneuvers, and if single strikes are better from ones that let you attack multiple times, based on the swordsage's medium BaB?

Yes, single strikes are definitely viable and arguably better (assuming no Wraithstrike UMD shenanigans ofcourse)

Again I direct you to the Meditant for suggestions on useful maneuvers and feats:
The various Diamond Mind strikes that use Concentration to multiply your damage are great to add some extra oomph to your single attacks, and charge+PA on the first round followed by use of the Combat Brute feat the next round helps as well



Oh, and as for the Iaijutsu item, how 'bout a Mwk scabbard? Aids a swift and smooth draw, which is just as important to Iaijutsu as the actual attack, one swift flowing motion and all that

[Leon]

That does make sense, i will look at the Meditant again i suppose.