The Traps Beginners should be warned of

[lans]

So, you hit one guy, and have a decent chance of an OHKO. Fair enough. You are now standing next to something that hits harder than you. Or smarter than you. Possibly both. If you do get the kill, you are now very, very close to the enemy, and will likely be the first thing they smash on the way to the rest of the party.

If I manage to kill one of them, then other party members should be able to kill enough of the others to not cause issues. Ie 8 wolves or what ever, my character sudden leaps, kills 2-3 of them, other party members kill a couple, my character takes 3d6 damage or so.  Or if its 3 ogres, my character can drop 1 and maybe damage another, the remaining 3 party members should be able to take out the remaining 2. If both ogres hit for max damage, my character should still be standing. Now if its a pair of equal cr creatures or something, then its a different matter. Either way between the sneak attack, needing a full attack with out pounce, and reliance on burning blade, this character is  not dealing reliable damage.
 It could get three attacks(TWF+flurry manuever), and thus hit BBs target of 70 pts on the first round, its getting -4 to its attack bonus, and 4 sources of questionable damage-Fire, flat footed, sneak attack, hitting with 3 attacks at maybe+10.

Not having many HP will make this far more dangerous for you, than it would be for them.

Who's them?

Yes, if combat lasts one round, this won;t be a problem, but that's outright conceding your viability to the guy who can make reality his bitch.

Theirs more ways to end combat in 1 round than the wizard.


Either way, the way to make dex work is to get  a lot of arms, and mouthpick weapons. Aberant limb template or thri-kreen can exceed the mark at 6th, anthromorphic octopi and squids blow it away.

[dman11235]

I designate you as my Dodge target.  You Power Attack, hit, and deal no extra damage from your Power Attack.  Oh!  Hey!  I see you met my friend, Elusive Target!

Look, see?  I can eliminate your damage too!

Or you could miss against someone with a high AC because you killed your attack bonus by subtracting 20 from it.  Yes, even at level 20 subtracting 20 from your attack modifier is a LOT.  Causes you to miss even medium ACs sometimes.  Oh, but you don't subtract from AB, do you?  You take it off of AC, right?  Because that's how all PAers do it?  Well, congratulations, you just wasted an entire turn charging something that moved outside your reach (Sidestep Charge).  And now you're screwed, because the only way this glass cannon can do damage and survive is OHKOing something on a charge.  You know what?  Anything that either side says, the other will definitely have a counter.  PA?  Elusive Target.  SA? Improved Uncanny Dodge.  PA? Stealth build.  SA?  Undead.

This discussion is worthless.  Seriously.

[SorO_Lost]

This discussion is worthless.  Seriously.

+1

Also, if you change the race on that post of mine you should break 10,000...
And anyone got a book/page quote on those Crescent Knives Amechra mentioned?

Which race would that be?

Crescent Knives are from Dragon Mag 275, page 44 or so.

Dragonborn Orc let's you perform a dive (halberds are piecing) & Headlong Rush is (half-)Orc only. That changes things from x4 to x6. Investing in UMD for Rhino's Rush is x7 for double guarantee there I'm sure it would break 10k then.

And I figured dragon and probably 3.0, tis a shame. I suppose I should dig into some 3.0 books at some point. Like I know Ghostwalk has Skullmarbles obviously since with Gravestrike they make Rogues the top undead hunters in D&D which is one hell of a claim to steal from the guys with Turn Undead I think. There is bound to be some others that are worth knowing and I should go learn them.

[TSS]

Power Attack is itself an "attempt to do damage", since to do that extra 40 damage, you're taking a -20 penalty to hit.  It's better to have a much higher possibility of hitting for a little less damage with more opportunities to apply said damage.  Yes, who you can hit with it is more situational, but the expected output is much higher.

Who would take the -20 as a penalty to their accuracy unless they had a ton of spare accuracy?

For that matter, why would it only be +40 and not +80 or more?

And yes, HiPS does work that way.  You hide, take the -20 penalty for hiding while attacking, and get detected.  Hide is one skill that is stupidly easy to boost but not that easy.  They beat your Hide result with their Spot check and you are treated as invisible to them until you attack, then they find you and kill you.  Darkstalker is a must-have feat for anyone who wants to sneak anywhere, so some special senses also mean jack.

Fixed.

What you are missing is that you're doing all of this to even attempt to do damage. Or you can be a Power Attacker and just attack.

Would you even be interested in having me actually do the statistical analysis on that?
I haven't done it yet (so I don't yet know the definitive result); but it wouldn't be anything too in depth -- just a simple "expected damage over time" at each levels.
Or would you just ignore that if you didn't like the results?

Statistical analysis of what? It doesn't take an in depth look at anything to realize that not only do you have to bypass all the obstacles that would prevent you from attacking but you then have to bypass another long list of obstacles to sneak attack... all for rather non impressive results (same or less damage than the PAer, even if everything works), off a lower HP, lower Fort save and likely lower Will save character. Worse offensively and defensively in every way, in other words.

[TSS]

I designate you as my Dodge target.  You Power Attack, hit, and deal no extra damage from your Power Attack.  Oh!  Hey!  I see you met my friend, Elusive Target!

Look, see?  I can eliminate your damage too!

Or you could miss against someone with a high AC because you killed your attack bonus by subtracting 20 from it.  Yes, even at level 20 subtracting 20 from your attack modifier is a LOT.  Causes you to miss even medium ACs sometimes.  Oh, but you don't subtract from AB, do you?  You take it off of AC, right?  Because that's how all PAers do it?  Well, congratulations, you just wasted an entire turn charging something that moved outside your reach (Sidestep Charge).  And now you're screwed, because the only way this glass cannon can do damage and survive is OHKOing something on a charge.  You know what?  Anything that either side says, the other will definitely have a counter.  PA?  Elusive Target.  SA? Improved Uncanny Dodge.  PA? Stealth build.  SA?  Undead.

This discussion is worthless.  Seriously.

The problem with Elusive Target is that you just took Dodge and Mobility.

You are skilled at dodging past charging opponents and taking advantage when they miss.
Prerequisite: Dex 13, Dodge.
Benefit: You get a +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against charge attacks. If a charging opponent fails to make a successful attack against you, you gain an immediate attack of opportunity. This feat does not grant you more attacks of opportunity than you are normally allowed in a round. If you are flat-footed or otherwise denied your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class, you do not gain the benefit of this feat.

No mention of moving out of reach or moving at all. Just +4 AC, which won't stop them.

The sneak attacker is even more of a glass cannon and even more dependent on OHKOing things or dying... except that last I checked he didn't have any means of full attacking on round 1.

[wotmaniac]

Ever hear of a simple little tactic called "setting for a charge" -- it's fucking amazing.  It doesn't even require a feat, or expensive/exotic equipment, or anything.
Or obstacles in the way?  It's absolutely mind-blowing how well simple terrain features will fuck up a charge.  Or about 2 dozen different spells that are specifically designed to take care of that shit -- many of them low-level, no less.


The point is that both are situational (possibly even equally so); and both have ways to get fucked up; and both have ways to avoid the pitfalls.  At which point, statistical analysis is all that matters.

[weenog]

I designate you as my Dodge target.  You Power Attack, hit, and deal no extra damage from your Power Attack.  Oh!  Hey!  I see you met my friend, Elusive Target!

Look, see?  I can eliminate your damage too!

Or you could miss against someone with a high AC because you killed your attack bonus by subtracting 20 from it.  Yes, even at level 20 subtracting 20 from your attack modifier is a LOT.  Causes you to miss even medium ACs sometimes.  Oh, but you don't subtract from AB, do you?  You take it off of AC, right?  Because that's how all PAers do it?  Well, congratulations, you just wasted an entire turn charging something that moved outside your reach (Sidestep Charge).  And now you're screwed, because the only way this glass cannon can do damage and survive is OHKOing something on a charge.  You know what?  Anything that either side says, the other will definitely have a counter.  PA?  Elusive Target.  SA? Improved Uncanny Dodge.  PA? Stealth build.  SA?  Undead.

This discussion is worthless.  Seriously.

The problem with Elusive Target is that you just took Dodge and Mobility.

You are skilled at dodging past charging opponents and taking advantage when they miss.
Prerequisite: Dex 13, Dodge.
Benefit: You get a +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against charge attacks. If a charging opponent fails to make a successful attack against you, you gain an immediate attack of opportunity. This feat does not grant you more attacks of opportunity than you are normally allowed in a round. If you are flat-footed or otherwise denied your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class, you do not gain the benefit of this feat.

No mention of moving out of reach or moving at all. Just +4 AC, which won't stop them.

The sneak attacker is even more of a glass cannon and even more dependent on OHKOing things or dying... except that last I checked he didn't have any means of full attacking on round 1.

Possibly meant Sidestep, which does give you an opportunity to get out of reach or the charge line, unless you can't get an AoO against a charger in which case you have bigger problems.  Same feat requirements as Elusive Target, too.  And please don't pretend turning a 5-foot step into a 10-foot step is harder than seeing through optimized hiding.

[ImperatorK]

Evasive Reflexes.

[sirpercival]

One semi-important point is that the most optimized sneak-attackers are spellcasters, while the most optimized power-attackers are generally mundanes (frenzied berserker et al.).  So sneak attack is better because you can do other stuff better at the same time.

[zugschef]

One semi-important point is that the most optimized sneak-attackers are spellcasters, while the most optimized power-attackers are generally mundanes (frenzied berserker et al.).  So sneak attack is better because you can do other stuff better at the same time.

so sneak attack is better, because you're a fuckin' caster. lulz

[sirpercival]

One semi-important point is that the most optimized sneak-attackers are spellcasters, while the most optimized power-attackers are generally mundanes (frenzied berserker et al.).  So sneak attack is better because you can do other stuff better at the same time.

so sneak attack is better, because you're a fuckin' caster. lulz

[snakeman830]

Out of all the monsters in the MM1 with completed statblocks (so excluding dragons, since those all have to be customized by the DM anyway), the Solar has the highest Spot modifier of +32.

Kobold Rogue 20.
Dex of 30 (16 base, +2 racial, +6 enhancement, +5 inherent, +3 levels).
Dex mod of +10
23 ranks =+33 

Hmmm, before counting size modifiers or any direct Hide boosters, we're already beating the highest Spot in the MM.

+8 Size, +2 Shadowsilk leather armor
Up to +43 modifier now.
+2 masterwork tool, +15 competence (we'll go with Shadow armor property, since it's core)
Greater Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis +8, HiPS.

Hmm, +58 modifier right there.  Decent chance of beating the Solar while attacking and I've only grabbed three things outside of core.  Skill Mastery means we always get 48 on the hide check while attacking as-is (the Solar has to roll a 17 or higher to see the Rogue and a 37 or higher if he's not taking penalties for his actions), but why should I really be stopping here?  Would you like me to continue?  Keep in mind that only the inherent bonus is really any significant amount of money and I have a ton of things I can still dive into.  Note that this is still ignoring spellcasting and even the Dex isn't maximized.  There's a LOT of room to improve with minimal effort.

[zugschef]

that's assuming the solar (or the dm?) is a dumbass and doesn't use his spellcasting to cast some divination spells and screw this puny kobold over hard.

[Mooncrow]

that's assuming the solar (or the dm?) is a dumbass and doesn't use his spellcasting to cast some divination spells and screw this puny kobold over hard.

So it's a world where the DM does that on a regular basis?  Add in the mandatory +1 LA of Venca-blooded then, because a DM that uses Divination and doesn't TPK is either: 1. not really trying and using it as a substitute for real planning, or 2. can't write challenges worth shit.  (note that none of the "DM uses Divination" are good outcomes)

[TSS]

Ever hear of a simple little tactic called "setting for a charge" -- it's fucking amazing.  It doesn't even require a feat, or expensive/exotic equipment, or anything.
Or obstacles in the way?  It's absolutely mind-blowing how well simple terrain features will fuck up a charge.  Or about 2 dozen different spells that are specifically designed to take care of that shit -- many of them low-level, no less.

They spend their round setting for a charge. You spend your round charging someone else. If they're all setting for a charge then they're doing nothing else, so that's fine.

All of the other things shut down sneak attack just as well, especially since the only way he's going to full attack on round 1 is by charging.

Possibly meant Sidestep, which does give you an opportunity to get out of reach or the charge line, unless you can't get an AoO against a charger in which case you have bigger problems.  Same feat requirements as Elusive Target, too.  And please don't pretend turning a 5-foot step into a 10-foot step is harder than seeing through optimized hiding.

For you to get an AoO against a charger you'd have to be outreaching them. Most likely you have the same reach. That said you've still taken Dodge and Mobility.

One semi-important point is that the most optimized sneak-attackers are spellcasters, while the most optimized power-attackers are generally mundanes (frenzied berserker et al.).  So sneak attack is better because you can do other stuff better at the same time.

Aside from Hunter's Eye, how are you getting sneak attack without losing your casting power?

And how is a mundane more optimized than a 55 Str gish with Wraithstrike, Power Attack, and a high DC daze effect on every hit?

Casters are still better with Power Attack.

[Prime32]

Ever hear of a simple little tactic called "setting for a charge" -- it's fucking amazing.  It doesn't even require a feat, or expensive/exotic equipment, or anything.
Or obstacles in the way?  It's absolutely mind-blowing how well simple terrain features will fuck up a charge.  Or about 2 dozen different spells that are specifically designed to take care of that shit -- many of them low-level, no less.

They spend their round setting for a charge. You spend your round charging someone else. If they're all setting for a charge then they're doing nothing else, so that's fine.

Steadfast boots. Only 1400gp, ready against a charge as a free action regardless of your weapon. Also +4 vs bull rush/overrun/trip.

[wotmaniac]

And now we're right back to here:

Anything that either side says, the other will definitely have a counter.
[...]
This discussion is worthless.  Seriously.

Now, let's get back to more "beginner traps". 

[sirpercival]

One semi-important point is that the most optimized sneak-attackers are spellcasters, while the most optimized power-attackers are generally mundanes (frenzied berserker et al.).  So sneak attack is better because you can do other stuff better at the same time.

Aside from Hunter's Eye, how are you getting sneak attack without losing your casting power?

And how is a mundane more optimized than a 55 Str gish with Wraithstrike, Power Attack, and a high DC daze effect on every hit?

Casters are still better with Power Attack.

You have Hunter's Eye and a huge CL (which is useful in many places) and you Shapechange into a Gloom.  And there are a bunch of items, if you really care to go for that.  I assume for the Daze you're talking Boomerang Daze and an aptitude weapon?  That (and wraithstrike) are applicable to both situations, so not really relevant.

Using a 2-h weapon, your PA example (which I'm sure you can put more work into) will be doing +33 from strength and +40 from PA if you manage to grab divine power, so +73 damage.  If you get Leap Attack, that's +153 on a charge.

The sneak attacker will have at least +30d6 and can get up into the 40's without too much trouble.  Let's say +36d6 since you didn't go into more detail with your example, and it makes my math really simple.  Now, if you get Leap Attack, then it's likely the sneak attacker will have the Deadly Precision feat (and possibly Craven, but DP is better because of how it changes the probabilities).  The Bracers of Murder would be better, but w/e.  That gives average damage on 36d6 of +181, even when not charging.

The real kicker is the valorous weapon, which you didn't specify.  That's setting-specific, but I'll grant you that if you can swing a valorous weapon, then on a charge the PA-er will do more damage (since the sneak attack dice don't get multiplied).

[zugschef]

Isn't it funny how concealment fucks over sneak attacks?

[sirpercival]

Isn't it funny how concealment fucks over sneak attacks?

It depends.  Is it concealment from an illusion effect which gets negated from having an Illusion Bane weapon?  Or is it concealment later in the game when you have blindsight?