The Traps Beginners should be warned of

[SorO_Lost]

and groups that didn't could trade stories of which trap got them.

The original "rocks fall, you die" eh? Damn gargoyle...

Best part(s) is getting people walk into traps you already know about. Like the famous sphere of destruction or even better, the nude teleporter which is totally awesome

[RetroGamer24]

Discussing Tomb of Horrors isn't needed.

I have to say I believe just about every major trap is covered.

Skills: Check
Melee: Check
Steath: Check
Scouting: Check
True Namer:Check
Complete Warrior Samurai: Check
Reaping Mauler: Check
Ranged Combat: Check

If I am forgetting any please add on.

[caelic]

Fair enough.  Old school versus new school is not the topic of the thread.

However, I think that the biggest, most fundamental trap of all is missing from your list:

It's not self-evident to a very new player that specialists trump generalists--but they absolutely do.   3.5 is NOT a game where a jack-of-all-trades will excel without EXTREME effort (and that generally involves creating a master-of-many-trades, not a jack-of-all-trades.)

This is true at every tier.  It's why a Mystic Theurge is generally inferior to a pure caster; being a sub-par wizard and cleric is inferior to being a pure wizard or a pure cleric.  It's why a monk is inferior to a fighter or barbarian; a melee combatant with lots of minor abilities that don't directly relate to combat is inferior to a melee combatant whose abilities are focused on melee combat.

[TSS]

Discussing Tomb of Horrors isn't needed.

I have to say I believe just about every major trap is covered.

Skills: Check
Melee: Check
Steath: Check
Scouting: Check
True Namer:Check
Complete Warrior Samurai: Check
Reaping Mauler: Check
Ranged Combat: Check

If I am forgetting any please add on.

Melee is only borderline. There's also grappling, in combat healing, most buffs, feat trees, and many others. I do think that almost everything has been mentioned already.

Speaking of which, that is a very good point. Unless you're something like a Wizard you're choosing between doing one thing well or two or more things poorly. Just how much focus is required depends on the character, with more powerful characters needing less focus on a thing to be good at that thing allowing them to be good at more things.

But classes like the Monk do a number of things and are bad at all of them. Even better classes such as the Bard have exactly one ability that justifies their tier placement and are otherwise completely outdone by even things in the same tier as Beguilers are better in every way except having Inspire Courage. This literally means Bards that aren't IC focused are being played wrong.

Generalists also tend to be very inconsistent. A Warlock is better than a Rogue in every way that matters despite also being the same tier. A good bit of this is skills being a trap, but even then take 10 on UMD means Warlocks are better.

Either way if you look at different characters of different classes the weak ones don't do anything, the better ones do one thing, and the good ones do several different things. Focus is required to build an effective character at some level.

[Waazraath]

Discussing Tomb of Horrors isn't needed.

I have to say I believe just about every major trap is covered.

Skills: Check
Melee: Check
Steath: Check
Scouting: Check
True Namer:Check
Complete Warrior Samurai: Check
Reaping Mauler: Check
Ranged Combat: Check

If I am forgetting any please add on.

Seriously... this whole discussion has been raging for a bloody 18 pages, and this is what is presented as the summary? "skills, ranged combat and melee are traps"??? Yes, this is a great help to new players obviously. Too bad dman already gave sarcasm a try, and people don't seem able to pick it up. I won't waste effort on it then, but would kindly suggest all new people to ignore about the last 17 pages of this thread. Prime32 made a decent list in post 3, a few posts later is the neccesary "all the above has exeptions". The pages after it... meh.

[Unbeliever]

+1

This is about 1 sentence away from "D&D is a trap." 

[ImperatorK]

"D&D is a trap." 

Awww. And I was just going to post that... :/

[Bauglir]

It sounds accurate, for given definitions of trap.

Basically no system introduced in Core works as well as a new player would expect. It's just that spellcasting and subsystems thereof (magic items) happen to work better than expected, and all the rest are worse. Barring a few exceptions, such as enchantment, which work less well than expected.

[RetroGamer24]

Neesh @Waazraath didn't you read TSS's post after mine?  Guess not.  That is okay.  I did say if I forgot anything to please add it in.  Didn't read that either. Oh well. Have a great night everyone!

YES!
YES!
YES!
YES!

[Sinfire Titan]

This literally means Bards that aren't IC focused are being played wrong.

BS. Bards do not need to focus on IC specifically in order to be efficient. They need to focus on something, but it does not mean they have to focus on IC. IC is just the easiest path.

[Kajhera]

This literally means Bards that aren't IC focused are being played wrong.

BS. Bards do not need to focus on IC specifically in order to be efficient. They need to focus on something, but it does not mean they have to focus on IC. IC is just the easiest path.

Well, to address the context of that quote, what outside of Inspire Courage does a bard do better than a beguiler, who is in a nearby conceptual space?

(I'm personally thinking 'takes sublime chord', but that may escape the purpose.)

[ImperatorK]

This literally means Bards that aren't IC focused are being played wrong.

BS. Bards do not need to focus on IC specifically in order to be efficient. They need to focus on something, but it does not mean they have to focus on IC. IC is just the easiest path.

Well, to address the context of that quote, what outside of Inspire Courage does a bard do better than a beguiler, who is in a nearby conceptual space?

(I'm personally thinking 'takes sublime chord', but that may escape the purpose.)

Buffing, debuffing, maybe BC.

[RetroGamer24]

In a Core game sure the bard can do those things.  Beyond core not so much.  Yes Sublime Cord but a beguiler does do it better.  Main problem for bard is simply the perform skill, imo, as many things can handle it.  Main example off the top of my head is a silence spell, if you want to take out magic then sneezing powder or even I dunno someone on Team Monster ringing a damn loud bell to disrupt the bard.  Too silly?  The long down time after using the music (varies on DM).

YES!
YES!
YES!
YES!

[ImperatorK]

Beyond Core Bard gets even better.

Buffing, debuffing, maybe BC.

Also playing music.

[SorO_Lost]

Well, to address the context of that quote, what outside of Inspire Courage does a bard do better than a beguiler, who is in a nearby conceptual space?

Everything.

I'm pretty sure not a single option on the Beguiler's Spell List doesn't offer a Will Save outside of Solid Fog. Further their list is dedicated to stealth, mind tricks, and divinations. A Bard has a wider range of spell choice, just plain better spells (looking at you celerity), better save DCs (cha>int), built in Persistence enabling options, melee poweress as a back up (IC/alterself/dozens of cha to combat stuff), his role of party buffer is hard to replace (any arcane replaces the beguiler), and oh yes exclusive access to Sublime Chord. The only thing a Beguiler has going for him self is the ability to use a Runestaff to cast useful 9th level spells but that's just it right there isn't it? Beguiler despite being a full caster sucks so badly it's comparable to a not-so-full caster.

[Kajhera]

Thanks, that's pleasantly specific.

[TSS]

This literally means Bards that aren't IC focused are being played wrong.

BS. Bards do not need to focus on IC specifically in order to be efficient. They need to focus on something, but it does not mean they have to focus on IC. IC is just the easiest path.

If they are focused on anything else, what you have is a very weak Beguiler. Beguilers are fine, but weak impersonators are not. IC is the only thing that makes them unique and the only thing giving them their real power.

Edit: Beguilers are better at absolutely everything else. Even the things that don't matter like skills. The real benefit is better spells and a better spellcasting chassis. They automatically know everything on their list, including things added to their list. Bards only get a handful of spells, and at much later levels.

Most Beguiler spells are Will save based... so are most Bard spells, and the Beguiler has better DCs. That and Will save effects are the best kind.

Many Beguiler spells are enchantment and blocked by common immunities... same is true for the Bard.

The advantage of the Bard comes down to meleeing... with IC (the other effects don't matter).

Are Bards bad? Not at all. I was recently having a discussion with someone who is very concerned the entire party is going to die because they don't have strong bard songs.

It does mean if you want to do anything other than focus on IC a Beguiler is better. It also means that one thing is both the Bard's only advantage and so good you have to focus on it to be a good Bard.

[Unbeliever]

Doomspeak.

P.S.:  Celerity was already mentioned as well. 

[TSS]

Extra actions only matter if you have things to do with those actions. One strong spell is better than two weak ones and then nothing the next round.

Doomspeak is IC based, isn't it?

Edit: The Beguiler’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise, Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Forgery, Gather Information, Hide, Jump, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (local), Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Profession, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Speak Language, Spellcraft, Spot, Swim, Tumble, Use Magic Device.

[Unbeliever]

Doomspeak is IC based, isn't it?

No, it's bardic music based.  It has nothing to do with IC at all.  Unless you meant IC to stand in for all bardic music. 

Extra actions only matter if you have things to do with those actions. One strong spell is better than two weak ones and then nothing the next round.

Bard's can do a lot with their actions.  But, I mentioned it in conjunction with Doomspeak b/c even without getting immune to daze, you can wreck extremely powerful opponents:  Doomspeak (inflicting -10 to saves), Celerity, and then a save or die/suck. 

Edit: The Beguiler’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise, Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Forgery, Gather Information, Hide, Jump, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (local), Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Profession, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Speak Language, Spellcraft, Spot, Swim, Tumble, Use Magic Device.

We know.  The Bard has UMD, too (and nearly the same list if memory serves), so at best that's a wash. 

I believe the generally accepted wisdom is to not try to use UMD too much in judging a class' effectiveness since UMD's power doesn't really have anything to do with the class per se, unless it has a specific ability related to that skill (e.g., Warlock).