Author Topic: The Traps Beginners should be warned of  (Read 169402 times)

Offline Zionpopsickle

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Re: The Traps Beginners should be warned of
« Reply #60 on: April 01, 2012, 09:06:32 PM »
Here's a simple scenario that describes several traps to get things back on topic.

There is a locked iron door between you and where you need to go. You don't have the key and have no idea how you could get it.

Barring specific class abilities, there are three main methods of dealing with this problem - pick the lock, break the door in one shot, and break the door via HP damage.

Pick the lock: The system heavily nudges you towards this one because it's a locked door, you're supposed to interact with the lock right? No, that's a trap. Since good locks are cheap, the locks on anything important will be well out of reach of your lockpicking abilities. Since it's an iron door it's clearly blocking something important. This is a means of wasting skill points on a skill that does nothing and that's all.

Break the door in one shot: This requires a DC 28 check that is Str + size + other benefits. Essentially if you are anything other than a Dungeoncrasher Fighter you're not breaking it down, even if you're strong it's not likely at the levels this constitutes a significant obstable. If you are you're still not that likely to break it down unless you stack many different things that boost Str checks in addition to the +10 bonus from Dungeoncrasher levels. This isn't necessarily a trap, as you made that investment for Dungeoncrashing and breaking doors is just a random bonus but if you're anything else trying is a trap as you're only going to make a lot of noise and alert anything around to your presence and general intentions. The system does kind of nudge you towards this one, but not really.

Break the door via HP damage: It has hardness 10 and 60 HP which is decent at these levels. However it's an inanimate object. You can PA your entire BAB, use any take accuracy penalties for more attacks and so forth and still hit so breaking it down is very easy. The system nudges you away from this one slightly. Despite it being clearly the best option as it works reliably without specific investment - any melee character can do it.

What you are saying is true, from a certain point of view. [/Obi-Wan Kenobi]

While everything you say is accurate, it is only valid if you are attempting to solve the problem "linearly" but a huge aspect of 3.5 is that non-linear solutions generally exist and sometimes are more optimal. 

For your example, it might also be possible to hide and wait for a guard charge, to find the owner of the key and beat him up, use alternate movement modes like burrow, climb or flight, or comedy option: knock on door and say in orcish "Pizza Delivery!"

This is part of what can make it hard for beginners is that sometimes existent linear solutions are worse than non-linear ones and at other times non-linear solutions are wasteful compared to simple solutions.  Evaluating this takes a level of skill mastery that many beginners don't possess and can render something as simple as a locked door a major puzzle to them while an advanced player would just power attack the damn thing.

this is not a trap beginners should be warned of. some of the core classes (bard, cleric, druid, wizard, sorcerer) are very good in providing a servicable chassis for a successful adventurer.

I would actually say the Bard and Sorcerer are often traps for beginners.  Sorcerers can easily suck with bad spell selection and Bards can become very unfocused in the hands of novices. 

Barbarians are a good class for beginners in campaigns that end before leaving the middle levels because you have a very simple strategy of hulk-out, charge and power attack.  They can teach tactical positioning, character focus and begin to show characters the mundane/magic imbalance when you reach middle levels.

I think a big thing is that it is less important for a beginner to actually succeed completely than it is for them to learn how to succeed.  Lets face it, nearly everyone's first character kinda sucks, but as more experienced players you want to teach them how to make their next character not suck as much and so on until they create good characters by a natural progression of skill. 

Offline lans

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Re: The Traps Beginners should be warned of
« Reply #61 on: April 01, 2012, 09:39:25 PM »

Pick the lock: The system heavily nudges you towards this one because it's a locked door, you're supposed to interact with the lock right? No, that's a trap. Since good locks are cheap, the locks on anything important will be well out of reach of your lockpicking abilities. Since it's an iron door it's clearly blocking something important. This is a means of wasting skill points on a skill that does nothing and that's all.
Couldn't you just take 20, and not worry about making a lot of noise of wacking the door down?

Offline Bearchucks

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Re: The Traps Beginners should be warned of
« Reply #62 on: April 01, 2012, 10:49:45 PM »
Indeed.  The options for getting through a door like that are almost endless.  I'm a personal fan of the "vial of acid eats the lock away" trick myself.  Taking 20 on Open Locks is pretty much assumed, isn't it?

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: The Traps Beginners should be warned of
« Reply #63 on: April 02, 2012, 12:19:51 AM »
Indeed.  The options for getting through a door like that are almost endless.  I'm a personal fan of the "vial of acid eats the lock away" trick myself.  Taking 20 on Open Locks is pretty much assumed, isn't it?
I like the hit it with a hammer (see Mending), that way just like the spell it can appear as if you were never there. :)

Offline TSS

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Re: The Traps Beginners should be warned of
« Reply #64 on: April 02, 2012, 08:15:54 AM »
If 3rd party isn't available to you, you can get something close to the same thing with Shadow Blade or (IIRC) Champion of the elf god whose name I can't spell.

Or you can not do that, and instead get a stat adding to your damage for free.

While everything you say is accurate, it is only valid if you are attempting to solve the problem "linearly" but a huge aspect of 3.5 is that non-linear solutions generally exist and sometimes are more optimal. 

For your example, it might also be possible to hide and wait for a guard charge, to find the owner of the key and beat him up, use alternate movement modes like burrow, climb or flight, or comedy option: knock on door and say in orcish "Pizza Delivery!"

Quote from: TSS
Barring specific class abilities, there are three main methods of dealing with this problem.

The only one of those that might actually work with any degree of reliability is burrowing. Doors are also not intended to be significant obstacles. If you are treating them as if they are... it's not quite a trap, but it's definitely going about things all wrong.

Couldn't you just take 20, and not worry about making a lot of noise of wacking the door down?

You spend 2 minutes not opening the door. Which also makes a lot of noise. Compared to a maximum of 1 round breaking it down.
@ TSS
That's cute. I see you changed your mind about "Not WoW Tanks" after all. It's nice to see you started to like subpar concepts.

Offline Prime32

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Re: The Traps Beginners should be warned of
« Reply #65 on: April 02, 2012, 11:46:07 AM »
If 3rd party isn't available to you, you can get something close to the same thing with Shadow Blade or (IIRC) Champion of the elf god whose name I can't spell.

Or you can not do that, and instead get a stat adding to your damage for free.
Dex does more than Str though (Initiative, Hide/Move Silently, Tumble, AC, Combat Reflexes) and certain abilities need a high score for prereqs, so if you needed high Dex anyway then you might as well reduce your MAD.

As for opening doors making too much noise, that's what silent portal disks are for.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2012, 11:50:39 AM by Prime32 »

Offline TSS

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Re: The Traps Beginners should be warned of
« Reply #66 on: April 02, 2012, 01:51:48 PM »
Hide and Move Silently are bypassed entirely by a large number of things. Tumble DCs are not very high, AC benchmarks are far too high, and Combat Reflexes only matters if your AoOs are doing significant damage and/or having a significant chance of tripping things. Both of which are factors of Str, and Str is easier to boost than Dex on top of all that. Particularly given many of the things that increase reach decrease Dex.

That leaves only Initiative which is important, but not if you don't have something good to do with your action. For all of those things except Combat Reflexes Dexterity is not the primary factor and isn't even a significant factor.

If you're doing 1d6+4 a hit at level 6 it doesn't matter where your turn comes up in the initiative order.

The only reason you'd need high Dex anyways would be if you're a Rogue. I know someone that has plenty to say about them.
@ TSS
That's cute. I see you changed your mind about "Not WoW Tanks" after all. It's nice to see you started to like subpar concepts.

Offline lans

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Re: The Traps Beginners should be warned of
« Reply #67 on: April 02, 2012, 10:28:36 PM »
Or more like 3-5d6+14 short swords, 18 dex assassins stance, burning blade, rapid assault, hit and run fighter, some strength and or wisdom


Couldn't you just take 20, and not worry about making a lot of noise of wacking the door down?

You spend 2 minutes not opening the door. Which also makes a lot of noise. Compared to a maximum of 1 round breaking it down.
Are their actual rules on how much sound the open lock skill makes?
« Last Edit: April 03, 2012, 12:07:15 AM by lans »

Offline Basket Burner

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Re: The Traps Beginners should be warned of
« Reply #68 on: April 03, 2012, 08:32:27 AM »
Or more like 3-5d6+14 short swords, 18 dex assassins stance, burning blade, rapid assault, hit and run fighter, some strength and or wisdom

So still insignificant amounts of damage and highly conditional at that? And with a super MAD character that apparently needs 4 different stats, at least?


Couldn't you just take 20, and not worry about making a lot of noise of wacking the door down?

You spend 2 minutes not opening the door. Which also makes a lot of noise. Compared to a maximum of 1 round breaking it down.
Are their actual rules on how much sound the open lock skill makes?
[/quote]

Are there actual rules on how much sound smashing a door makes?

Not that it matters since in the lock picking example you're still where you started in 2 minutes. In the door smashing example you're a half dozen rooms and multiple fights past that door.

Offline snakeman830

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Re: The Traps Beginners should be warned of
« Reply #69 on: April 03, 2012, 09:21:51 AM »
No, there aren't.  TSS is making stuff up.  Even in reality, picking a lock is fairly quiet, albeit time consuming.
"When life gives you lemons, fire them back at high velocity."

Offline lans

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Re: The Traps Beginners should be warned of
« Reply #70 on: April 03, 2012, 01:55:49 PM »
Or more like 3-5d6+14 short swords, 18 dex assassins stance, burning blade, rapid assault, hit and run fighter, some strength and or wisdom

So still insignificant amounts of damage and highly conditional at that? And with a super MAD character that apparently needs 4 different stats, at least?


And how much damage, number wise, do you think  would be above  insignificant, and why that number?

The strength and wisdom were not necessarily in the least.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2012, 01:59:03 PM by lans »

Offline Basket Burner

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Re: The Traps Beginners should be warned of
« Reply #71 on: April 03, 2012, 02:52:40 PM »
Or more like 3-5d6+14 short swords, 18 dex assassins stance, burning blade, rapid assault, hit and run fighter, some strength and or wisdom

So still insignificant amounts of damage and highly conditional at that? And with a super MAD character that apparently needs 4 different stats, at least?


And how much damage, number wise, do you think  would be above  insignificant, and why that number?

The strength and wisdom were not necessarily in the least.

At that level? About 70, because it makes HP damage do something. And not based on a bunch of conditional effects such as sneak attack, being flat footed, etc. Especially if you are only doing a single attack, which it sounds like you are.

Chargers and Dungeoncrashers hit the benchmark. Dex gimps don't.

Offline lans

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Re: The Traps Beginners should be warned of
« Reply #72 on: April 03, 2012, 11:43:52 PM »
Is that 70 per hit or round? Why is flat footed an unreliable condition?

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: The Traps Beginners should be warned of
« Reply #73 on: April 03, 2012, 11:57:52 PM »
Is that 70 per hit or round? Why is flat footed an unreliable condition?

The condition is hopefully reliable.  The damage output of SA though?  That's not.  Adding more random dice makes things more random and thus less reliable.

Offline OutlawPhilosopher

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Re: The Traps Beginners should be warned of
« Reply #74 on: April 04, 2012, 01:55:28 AM »
The damage output of SA though?  That's not.  Adding more random dice makes things more random and thus less reliable.

That's only kind of true. Your output is normally distributed, more or less, so eg
1d6+65 is >70 for n=5,6 = 33.3% of the time with an average result of 68.5
19d6+2 is >70 for n>68 = 44.7% of the time with an average result of 68.5

so, despite having a "more random" result in terms of extrema, we're actually MORE likely to get above a threshold with the same average result.

(the > are "greater than or equal to," the = are approximate to 1 decimal.)
« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 02:11:13 AM by OutlawPhilosopher »

Offline Mooncrow

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Re: The Traps Beginners should be warned of
« Reply #75 on: April 04, 2012, 07:40:35 AM »
The damage output of SA though?  That's not.  Adding more random dice makes things more random and thus less reliable.

That's only kind of true. Your output is normally distributed, more or less, so eg
1d6+65 is >70 for n=5,6 = 33.3% of the time with an average result of 68.5
19d6+2 is >70 for n>68 = 44.7% of the time with an average result of 68.5

so, despite having a "more random" result in terms of extrema, we're actually MORE likely to get above a threshold with the same average result.

(the > are "greater than or equal to," the = are approximate to 1 decimal.)

It's more "not reliable" in that 1. it doesn't work on everything, and 2. it's being compared to Power Attack damage, which isn't a dice variable. 

Offline Basket Burner

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Re: The Traps Beginners should be warned of
« Reply #76 on: April 04, 2012, 08:02:03 AM »
Is that 70 per hit or round? Why is flat footed an unreliable condition?

Per round.

I think it's obvious why something that only occurs on the first round, if you go first is unreliable.

It isn't just flat footed that's unreliable either, but sneak attack itself. Most of the time you will do a tiny fraction of your listed number.

Offline OutlawPhilosopher

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Re: The Traps Beginners should be warned of
« Reply #77 on: April 04, 2012, 11:05:31 AM »
Well, of course you can't necessarily do SA damage. The specific contention I replied to, and the mistake people continue to make, is that increasing the number of dice makes the result more random. It only does so from the perspective of the extrema.

Comparing it to a non dice variable like power attack is exactly my example. Because there is always a small random variable in dnd damage, if the target quantity is greater than the minmum amount done by your power attack, SA will be more reliable. (this is the only interesting case. If the threshold is less than the minimal PA damage, then obviously PA is more reliable, and if the Threshold is above the maximal PA damage, then obviously SA is more reliable.)

(all of the other criticisms of SA are quite right. Power attack is a more reliable source of damage.)

Offline lans

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Re: The Traps Beginners should be warned of
« Reply #78 on: April 04, 2012, 07:06:58 PM »
Is that 70 per hit or round? Why is flat footed an unreliable condition?

Per round.

I think it's obvious why something that only occurs on the first round, if you go first is unreliable.
I was figuring that combat only lasting about 1 round, and with an initiative bonus of about +10-16(different builds) that it would be fairly reliable.  What about just the first round effects?

Quote
It isn't just flat footed that's unreliable either, but sneak attack itself. Most of the time you will do a tiny fraction of your listed number.
I figured with having an initiative of +14, and with the average initiative of the cr 6 monsters being 2.8 getting the flat footed was, while maybe not reliable, above what I would call unreliable. Sneak attack would be conditioned on the monster being flatfooted, and additionally negated by monster size, type, and equipment and would be a bit unreliable.


Offline Wrex

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Re: The Traps Beginners should be warned of
« Reply #79 on: April 04, 2012, 08:40:34 PM »
Is that 70 per hit or round? Why is flat footed an unreliable condition?

Per round.

I think it's obvious why something that only occurs on the first round, if you go first is unreliable.
I was figuring that combat only lasting about 1 round, and with an initiative bonus of about +10-16(different builds) that it would be fairly reliable.  What about just the first round effects?

Quote
It isn't just flat footed that's unreliable either, but sneak attack itself. Most of the time you will do a tiny fraction of your listed number.
I figured with having an initiative of +14, and with the average initiative of the cr 6 monsters being 2.8 getting the flat footed was, while maybe not reliable, above what I would call unreliable. Sneak attack would be conditioned on the monster being flatfooted, and additionally negated by monster size, type, and equipment and would be a bit unreliable.
'

So, you hit one guy, and have a decent chance of an OHKO. Fair enough. You are now standing next to something that hits harder than you. Or smarter than you. Possibly both. If you do get the kill, you are now very, very close to the enemy, and will likely be the first thing they smash on the way to the rest of the party. Not having many HP will make this far more dangerous for you, than it would be for them. Yes, if combat lasts one round, this won;t be a problem, but that's outright conceding your viability to the guy who can make reality his bitch.