The Traps Beginners should be warned of

[Unbeliever]

+1. Advance scouting can be handy especially if you have buffing in your party to really take advantage of it. But I'd say it's like a tertiary character role or ability. So don't focus too much on it. You also need some sort of "get out of jail free card" in case you're spotted.

How much you focus depends on the DM - some hate scouting so any focus on it is a waste.  For a typical group, spells/wildshape is plenty.  Occasionally you'll run into a trenchcoat and mirrorshades DM, that requires a little more resources, but that's pretty rare.

Yeah, I thought about mentioning that a lot of scouting's utility falls into the "depends on DM" type of situation, but opted for conciseness.  Some DMs are very accommodating about it -- they see someone playing a rogue and they (a) don't go too far out of their way to shut it down, and (b) provide opportunities where it might be really useful.  That might be b/c they want the rogue archetype or what have you to be valuable, and so are willing to roll with it.  Other DMs are just the opposite.  And, in fairness to those DMs, they aren't exactly being crazy.  With buffs and the like available in D&D, especially the standard ones that a typical non-optimized party has access to, you can turn a challenging encounter into a breeze with some warning. 

Also, semi-tangentially, I mentioned the buffing route (and there are other equivalent ones, like getting into position, laying traps maybe) b/c that doesn't circumvent encounters.  The idea of sneaking around and avoiding all the combats is the sort of thing that might work in a solo video game but doesn't in D&D:  the other party members are disappointed and the DM could be annoyed that his encounters are not being used.  Although a good DM would be able to creatively weather the latter with hardly a thought.

[lans]

In combat healing is a trap for one simple reason: Enemy damage outpaces it at all levels of play with two exceptions. If you try to heal in combat you're fighting a losing battle and using up the action of someone who has so many better things they could be doing. This is only putting yourself at an even bigger disadvantage.

The exceptions to this are when a Cleric casts Heal at levels 11-15 or when an Artificer has cast Armor Enhancement for the Greater Healing enchantment beginning at level 5 and ending around the mid levels. Both of these keep up with enemy damage output and the latter is a Swift action so it is held to a lower standard (pun intended).

Your levels on the artificer seems off, if you are referring to the healing property from the MIC that heals for 3d8+15. They can use it at level 3.
Edit- A cleric at  level 5 could be curing 3d8+13+5 tp or 3/dr with 3 feats invested. Potentially making it an example of using too much investment.

[veekie]

Mainly, scouting is only a trap if you make it the end-all of your character. Knowledge is power, but having only information and nothing to do with it is just asking to be silenced. Scouting abilities are fantastic for ranged attackers, especially magical ones, due to being able to target, and not being able to be targeted back.

Granted, all you really need to be a scout is A) be able to know what the enemy is doing B) don't get detected while you do it. Both of these components are valuable in any character.

Do we include inefficients here? E.g. using targeted debuffs(which don't set up a kill) or combat summoning at the levels where 1-rounding is expected. When you're done putting them into play the fight's over.

[RedWarlock]

So, just curious, what does this list of traps leave as usable?

I ask, because I need to know what hydra heads to slice off when I get around to fixing the game. (and yes, that analogy was intentional...)

Almost every option I've heard listed is material which really should be viable. It's obvious much of it needs work, especially the true trap options (stuff that 'makes you worse at doing its job'), but my original post about comparing value of options still stands. (and yes, this does also mean rewriting monsters too.)

[InnaBinder]

RedWarlock, I'd say the thing all these traps have in common is that they pigeonhole a character into a role that becomes useless - depending on group and game structure and CO-fu.  Some of them are bigger traps than others, not because their role is more niche-oriented (which is campaign-dependent), but because of the amount of effort you need to expend in building toward these choices that can be easily negated. 

[TSS]

If something is a trap, it's because it doesn't work. Not because someone makes it not work.

Scouting is about sending one person off alone to see what's there and report back. There are many different ways you could do this. All of them have all of the following problems:

You're off a good distance from the party.
Every round, every enemy gets a chance to detect you. If they have any chance of detecting you you will be found.
Almost all of the classes that lean towards this have low or moderate offenses and low defenses. Once they're detected they die. The few that are not limited in this way still have to deal with a fight meant for the entire party by themselves and will have no backup for at least 1 or 2 rounds... which in D&D means the entire fight. They're still dead.
Most of them cannot get any real information. If one of the enemies casts a spell they'd have no idea what that spell is or what it does or who could cast it. It could be anything from a Ranger casting Endure Elements to a Wizard casting Blindsight and you'd never know the difference. This not only makes a big difference in the here and now, it makes a difference when you try to tell the party what they're up against.
There is a very long list of things that will either prevent you from trying or will automatically foil you if you do try that are naturally occurring throughout the game.
Even the simple numbers game doesn't work in your favor as skills are based on HD and monsters have more HD than PCs.

The obvious response is to claim a magic item that grants invisibility to Darkvision and another one that grants HiPS with limitations that they'll pretend don't exist and several more magic items to boost the numbers and some more items and feats to prevent themselves from being automatically detected... And after doing all that you've focused heavily on doing something that still will not work very often and that still will result in your death if you try it while making you easier to kill at all times because all of those resources spent on trying to hide wasn't spent on offense, defense, etc. Not to mention there is a substantial level range where you will not be able to do some, many, or even all of those things and will still face all of the same problems.

Despite all of this that archetype appeals rather strongly to beginning players. They'll walk right into it, especially if people are telling them it's good. And then they'll learn the hard way that it is a very bad idea.

[Mooncrow]

If something is a trap, it's because it doesn't work. Not because someone makes it not work.

Scouting is about sending one person off alone to see what's there and report back. There are many different ways you could do this. All of them have all of the following problems:

Well, at least you're listing your definitions this round, even if they're not correct - scouting is about finding out what's ahead; the method doesn't matter.  As I said, most of the time, spells generally provide enough to get by.  Now, I have played in campaigns where the encounters are designed to kill parties that go in without knowing exactly what they're up against, and since magic is the largest threat, it's treated as such, and anti-divination/AMF are used extremely heavily.  And in that case, you really do need a semi-dedicated scout.  Unseen Seer and SCM work pretty well for those kinds of campaigns, allowing for both magic and mundane sneaking/scrying and still have use during the actual fight. 

And let me be clear - in general, a dedicated mundane scout is a trap, yes, But scouting in general, not so much. 

[TSS]

If something is a trap, it's because it doesn't work. Not because someone makes it not work.

Scouting is about sending one person off alone to see what's there and report back. There are many different ways you could do this. All of them have all of the following problems:

Well, at least you're listing your definitions this round, even if they're not correct - scouting is about finding out what's ahead; the method doesn't matter.  As I said, most of the time, spells generally provide enough to get by.  Now, I have played in campaigns where the encounters are designed to kill parties that go in without knowing exactly what they're up against, and since magic is the largest threat, it's treated as such, and anti-divination/AMF are used extremely heavily.  And in that case, you really do need a semi-dedicated scout.  Unseen Seer and SCM work pretty well for those kinds of campaigns, allowing for both magic and mundane sneaking/scrying and still have use during the actual fight. 

And let me be clear - in general, a dedicated mundane scout is a trap, yes, But scouting in general, not so much.

AMFs mean a high level caster who cannot cast spells. Anti divination does not block all divinations and anyone that has that can easily stop hiding. Unseen Seers are casters who have sacrificed their actual power to go off alone against fights meant for the entire party. SCMs are better but they're still not going to be able to solo everything. Even if they could, perhaps because you subscribe to the mentality of pale shadows of enemies vs super optimized builds... one person is soloing everything, everyone else is doing nothing. That's a trap for a different reason. It will cause your fellow players to smack you in the back of the head.

There are ways you can find out what's ahead. Generally that involves the divinations that even anti divination measures don't block, research, or simply being prepared for common scenarios and attack forms. If you have a Mass Resist Energy scroll it doesn't matter if the next encounter is a pyrohydra or a breath strafing dragon or a horde of Fireball casters - it will stop any one of them just as well.

Sending one guy off alone to find out is a trap. Focusing on it is more of a trap. There are just too many ways of stopping them by accident. Without them consciously deciding to do anything about some guy sneaking up on them or to prevent that from happening.

Before making that post I looked at several dozen different stat blocks. Almost all of them had at least one method of automatically detecting them. Most of them could easily kill a Rogue or similar in a single round. Many could do so even if their role in the encounter was as mooks... for example, there were several different creatures all under level 10 that snakeman's high level Rogue could not even touch and that could easily kill him despite being so low level he wouldn't even get any experience points for defeating them if he somehow could, or alternately that gave so much experience to the enemy that there isn't even an entry showing how much they get for defeating the Rogue.

If you're getting beaten by something less than half your level and the only reason that's happening is because becoming entirely immune to you is easy it's safe to say that that is a trap.

[Kajhera]

Scouting can be a trap in a different way: if you send a guy ahead who happens to be able to handle many things he encounters on his own, he might well do so and make the adventure less interesting for the rest of the party.

Or make off with all your treasure in 'classic' thief style, causing party conflict on an OOC level if not an IC.

[Mooncrow]

It's possible that there were ways to auto-detect the "scout" that the DM ddin't employ - if he had, it would have been a TPK every encounter though, just like it would have been a likely insta-kill if the scout was discovered.  The point remains, DMs can have different solutions required, and there are those that really like the idea of scouting and base their encounter making with that in mind.  If you choose to ignore that, you're setting yourself up for constant TPK. 

And yeah, this is kind of an edge case, but it's hardly an unusual one.  They were hardly my favorite campaigns to play in, but I've certainly played in worse

The larger point is that some of the things you're trying to pass off as traps, are only true traps in the context of the style of game that you play.  There's nothing wrong with pointing that out, but given what an edge case your own campaigns are, it's more than a sweeping generalization to say "this applies everywhere and for everything". 

[lans]

At TSS- Were you referring to the healing property that heals 3d8+15 or is their a different one that I am unaware of?
Edit- Maybe we should take all the tangents to their own discussion.

[TSS]

At TSS- Were you referring to the healing property that heals 3d8+15 or is their a different one that I am unaware of?
Edit- Maybe we should take all the tangents to their own discussion.

Yes, that one.

Trap options are never about particular games, stop claiming they are.

If something doesn't work unless it is specifically allowed to work via bizarre and contrived circumstances it is a trap.

[Mooncrow]

Trap options are never about particular games, stop claiming they are.

If something doesn't work unless it is specifically allowed to work via bizarre and contrived circumstances it is a trap.

Your principle is correct - it's just that your application of it violates the stated principle. 

Dedicated mundane scout build - always a trap
Druid in bird form flying ahead to see how many gate guards there are - not a trap
Using Scry to check out the layout ahead - not a trap

So, scouting in general - not a trap. 

See how that works?

[TSS]

Trap options are never about particular games, stop claiming they are.

If something doesn't work unless it is specifically allowed to work via bizarre and contrived circumstances it is a trap.

Your principle is correct - it's just that your application of it violates the stated principle. 

Dedicated mundane scout build - always a trap
Druid in bird form flying ahead to see how many gate guards there are - not a trap
Using Scry to check out the layout ahead - not a trap

So, scouting in general - not a trap. 

See how that works?

Druid in bird form is still a single character going off alone.

Almost all of the classes that lean towards this have low or moderate offenses and low defenses. Once they're detected they die. The few that are not limited in this way still have to deal with a fight meant for the entire party by themselves and will have no backup for at least 1 or 2 rounds... which in D&D means the entire fight. They're still dead.

They've still already been mentioned. That and a Druid in bird form will have low offenses and defenses as Wilding Clasps would not work in that situation even if they are available and all of the good Druid spells are either defensive or close range... neither of which works when you're flying around. This also presumes you are outside. In any case at best they're a character who has been isolated from their party.

Scrying is not scouting. It can backfire, but not often enough to be a trap.

See how that works?

[Mooncrow]

Druid in bird form is still a single character going off alone.

Almost all of the classes that lean towards this have low or moderate offenses and low defenses. Once they're detected they die. The few that are not limited in this way still have to deal with a fight meant for the entire party by themselves and will have no backup for at least 1 or 2 rounds... which in D&D means the entire fight. They're still dead.

They've still already been mentioned. That and a Druid in bird form will have low offenses and defenses as Wilding Clasps would not work in that situation even if they are available and all of the good Druid spells are either defensive or close range... neither of which works when you're flying around. This also presumes you are outside. In any case at best they're a character who has been isolated from their party.

Scrying is not scouting. It can backfire, but not often enough to be a trap.

See how that works?

Ah, so much to say, but for civility's sake, I'll drop it.  It's not like you'll change your mind, and I made my points that matter. 

Save this: scrying - it's finding out what's ahead of you; if that's not scouting, what is it, exactly? 

[RetroGamer24]

To me Scrying is more then seeing what is ahead of you on a path. It is, to me, have information that could possibily save my butt or hassle.  Just knowing an ambush is around the bend is one thing but knowing that my third cousin is trying to kill me for the family fortune is a different matter.  That is where Scry can come in more handy then scouting ahead.  all my opinion

[TSS]

Scrying does not involve sending someone off ahead and does not result in one or more people getting killed even if it does backfire. At least not directly.

[Prime32]

Alright, forget "scouting" as a term then. Try "reconnaissance".

To me Scrying is more then seeing what is ahead of you on a path. It is, to me, have information that could possibily save my butt or hassle.  Just knowing an ambush is around the bend is one thing but knowing that my third cousin is trying to kill me for the family fortune is a different matter.  That is where Scry can come in more handy then scouting ahead.  all my opinion

Er, do you mean divination in general, not scrying? Because even with stuff like prying eyes, you'd have to spend a lot of resources to directly spy on that many people at once.

[TSS]

Alright, forget "scouting" as a term then. Try "reconnaissance".

That means the same thing. The correct term would be information gathering as it also includes other things that won't kill you such as researching at the library.

Information gathering isn't a trap and in many cases is a good thing if not outright required.

Scouting will get people killed.

[InnaBinder]

Scrying does not involve sending someone off ahead and does not result in one or more people getting killed even if it does backfire. At least not directly.

Why would powerful foes, in a magic world where knowledge of scrying is relatively commonplace, actively avoid taking defensive measures against it that included death or disabling of those who scry on them?  From my perspective, I'd call such a scenario 'contrived.'