Author Topic: The Traps Beginners should be warned of  (Read 169447 times)

Offline RetroGamer24

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Re: The Traps Beginners should be warned of
« Reply #220 on: April 12, 2012, 01:37:34 PM »
I will back the anti scouting with a game example.  Sunless Citidal, my group is about to head down a pit.  There are what seems to be people moving about collecting things.  The barbarian volunteers to scout down and see what is up.  He goes down and is attacked by the skeletons down there.  We save him sure but not before he is dropped unconscious. 
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Offline TSS

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Re: The Traps Beginners should be warned of
« Reply #221 on: April 12, 2012, 01:56:23 PM »
Scrying does not involve sending someone off ahead and does not result in one or more people getting killed even if it does backfire. At least not directly.
Why would powerful foes, in a magic world where knowledge of scrying is relatively commonplace, actively avoid taking defensive measures against it that included death or disabling of those who scry on them?  From my perspective, I'd call such a scenario 'contrived.'

Lack of ability for the most part. You can block Scrying, but in terms of finding and killing the scrier? Easier said than done.
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Offline RetroGamer24

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Re: The Traps Beginners should be warned of
« Reply #222 on: April 12, 2012, 02:15:32 PM »
I got a super trap as was said in another thread.  Your class doesn't equal your character.  Your concept can include a mix of abilities from different classes.  Just because you are a fighter doesn't mean you solely pick Fighter as a class.  I am sure this was said before but best restate it.
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Offline Prime32

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Re: The Traps Beginners should be warned of
« Reply #223 on: April 12, 2012, 02:15:58 PM »
Aren't there spells which cause backlash to people scrying on you? Plus detect scrying tells you the location and appearance of anyone trying to scry you, and it lasts all day.

I will back the anti scouting with a game example.  Sunless Citidal, my group is about to head down a pit.  There are what seems to be people moving about collecting things.  The barbarian volunteers to scout down and see what is up.  He goes down and is attacked by the skeletons down there.  We save him sure but not before he is dropped unconscious.
A barbarian? A guy without Hide/Move Silently as class skills (and who couldn't use them while raging, nor very well in the fatigue after rage), presumably low Dex, and possibly wearing heavy armor... was the party member trying to sneak around? :???

Offline RetroGamer24

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Re: The Traps Beginners should be warned of
« Reply #224 on: April 12, 2012, 02:24:56 PM »
Well I don't think he was wearing heavy armor and he wasn't sneaking, he just climbed down to scout.  Also he didn't rage untill he was about half hp.  Oh and the group I played with all played 2nd edition plus having more years of role playing experience then me.

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Offline TSS

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Re: The Traps Beginners should be warned of
« Reply #225 on: April 12, 2012, 02:27:11 PM »
Aren't there spells which cause backlash to people scrying on you? Plus detect scrying tells you the location and appearance of anyone trying to scry you, and it lasts all day.

There are, but those aren't going to kill the scrier. They'll just use a few wand or belt charges.

The person doing the scrying is at the advantage, and that includes preventing themselves from being scried in turn.
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Offline Sinfire Titan

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Re: The Traps Beginners should be warned of
« Reply #226 on: April 12, 2012, 02:32:05 PM »
Well I don't think he was wearing heavy armor and he wasn't sneaking, he just climbed down to scout.  Also he didn't rage untill he was about half hp.  Oh and the group I played with all played 2nd edition plus having more years of role playing experience then me.

That doesn't sound like a smart move on the barbarian's part. Granted, the not wearing heavy armor thing is pretty much a given (not proficient, level not stated so mithral plate may not have been an option), but not raging until around 1/2HP and not being familiar with the system means he was nearly guaranteed to die if he was outnumbered.
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Offline RetroGamer24

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Re: The Traps Beginners should be warned of
« Reply #227 on: April 12, 2012, 02:37:23 PM »
We were around level 2.  Barbarian had a LA of +6 (some dwarf charcter from FR).  Most of the group just started 3.5.  DM, I don't think, read the rules fully.  I was the min maxer of the group and got reprimaned for it.  I changed my crusader for a half troll, half orge desert half orc dungeon crashing fighter and was told to tone down the damage because the DM would have to make the encounters harder.  Mind you I only made such a character due to combat taking 1+ hours and we had like one combat per session.

EDIT:

My point is this.  Newbie is a varied term.  What I am learning here probably wont be useful only because if I went back to that gaming group "well roundedness" is more important then optimized.  Another example is the dwarf fighter whom had like all his mental stats 7 or lower.  Had a beefy con and str but little else.  What was his skill choice...come on take a guess.

(click to show/hide)

All ranks in it, I was DM and was like  :twitch .  I let it go, my bad, but it was a game session where the player loved being loud and "playing" his character. 
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 02:45:42 PM by RetroGamer24 »
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Offline ImperatorK

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Re: The Traps Beginners should be warned of
« Reply #228 on: April 12, 2012, 02:40:10 PM »
Traps are traps.
Magic is for weaklings.

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Offline Nytemare3701

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Re: The Traps Beginners should be warned of
« Reply #229 on: April 12, 2012, 02:41:16 PM »
Traps are traps.

Indeed. They take weeks to craft, as the crafting time is measured in Silver Pieces, then they are still rather pointless.

Offline Sinfire Titan

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Re: The Traps Beginners should be warned of
« Reply #230 on: April 12, 2012, 02:41:25 PM »
We were around level 2.  Barbarian had a LA of +6 (some dwarf charcter from FR).  Most of the group just started 3.5.  DM, I don't think, read the rules fully.  I was the min maxer of the group and got reprimaned for it.  I changed my crusader for a half troll, half orge desert half orc dungeon crashing fighter and was told to tone down the damage because the DM would have to make the encounters harder.  Mind you I only made such a character due to combat taking 1+ hours and we had like one combat per session.

Yeah, sounds like low-system mastery was the cause of the barbarian's failure.
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Offline veekie

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Re: The Traps Beginners should be warned of
« Reply #231 on: April 12, 2012, 02:51:01 PM »
Traps are traps.

Indeed. They take weeks to craft, as the crafting time is measured in Silver Pieces, then they are still rather pointless.
Unless its portable auto-resetting traps of *insert useful spell here* I guess.
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Offline Kajhera

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Re: The Traps Beginners should be warned of
« Reply #232 on: April 12, 2012, 03:02:10 PM »
TSS: Splitting the party is a trap.
Other people: Having information is not a trap.

- Both true. If you feel the impulse to contest TSS's point, go watch a horror movie, and see how you feel at the point they split up to investigate. Be Genre Savvy.

In the cases where it's not a trap for the character, it's often a trap for the party.

Traps are traps.

Indeed. They take weeks to craft, as the crafting time is measured in Silver Pieces, then they are still rather pointless.

Heh. You made me smile, have a kudos.

Offline RetroGamer24

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Re: The Traps Beginners should be warned of
« Reply #233 on: April 12, 2012, 03:05:56 PM »


Sticking to the idea of the Holy Trinity of parties.  That is Tank, DPS, and Healing.  It may work in some MMO's but not always in D&D.

Also this is a Trap.

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Offline Mooncrow

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Re: The Traps Beginners should be warned of
« Reply #234 on: April 12, 2012, 03:08:28 PM »
TSS: Splitting the party is a trap.
Other people: Having information is not a trap.

- Both true. If you feel the impulse to contest TSS's point, go watch a horror movie, and see how you feel at the point they split up to investigate. Be Genre Savvy.

Bullshit.  That's not even close to an approximation of the argument.  It's just that I recognize that when "druid flies ahead to check something" is met with "he's auto-detected and dies" there's no amount of rational argument that's going to happen there, so dropped that half of the discussion and moved to the other half.  And was met by "since scouting is by definition a trap, anything that is good is not scouting".

Offline Kajhera

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Re: The Traps Beginners should be warned of
« Reply #235 on: April 12, 2012, 03:12:19 PM »
TSS: Splitting the party is a trap.
Other people: Having information is not a trap.

- Both true. If you feel the impulse to contest TSS's point, go watch a horror movie, and see how you feel at the point they split up to investigate. Be Genre Savvy.

Bullshit.  That's not even close to an approximation of the argument.  It's just that I recognize that when "druid flies ahead to check something" is met with "he's auto-detected and dies" there's no amount of rational argument that's going to happen there, so dropped that half of the discussion and moved to the other half.  And was met by "since scouting is by definition a trap, anything that is good is not scouting".
... I'm pretty sure TSS's argument amounts to 'splitting the party is a dumb idea because it gets the scout killed'.

"There are, but those aren't going to kill the scrier. They'll just use a few wand or belt charges."
"Scrying does not involve sending someone off ahead and does not result in one or more people getting killed even if it does backfire. At least not directly."

-- The problem here is the scout getting killed easily if the scouting goes wrong. Which TSS would say is quite likely to happen. You know what happened last time I sent a small bird to scout (as a binder)? It was struck by lightning whenever it got 3 feet from me. This isn't, per se, common, but being a bird doesn't make you immune to encounters.

-- My observation is if the scout doesn't need the party to not get killed by encounters, there's not a ton stopping him from soloing them and marginalizing the party. (Wouldn't be the first time, with a druid.)
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 03:15:02 PM by Kajhera »

Offline RetroGamer24

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Re: The Traps Beginners should be warned of
« Reply #236 on: April 12, 2012, 03:13:22 PM »
One problem though Moon is that is the party is split up, and DM isn't being a tool, it is easy to have seperated person get outnumbered and bite the big one.  Regular patrols, pre set alarms (skull alarm I can think of), other things can trounce a character moving ahead to "scout".  Now if it is scrying or even the bird thing binders can do much better and without a loss of a major resource...the character.
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Offline Nytemare3701

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Re: The Traps Beginners should be warned of
« Reply #237 on: April 12, 2012, 03:24:05 PM »
I don't think there is any argument that magic makes a better scout. The question is, can a person be good enough at scouting with minimal investment to not make it suicide (Or just a very bad idea)? For players with low system mastery, I'm leaning toward no. If you have a finely tuned character, with access to all splat and whatnot, you can easily make scouting work. Unfortunately, that binder with a bird still does it better because failure on his part means that they shot a bird, not that they found a party member and raised an alarm.

Note: Don't get me wrong, I love scouts, skirmishers, sword & board, and all manner of "non-optimal" builds. I just don't think they hold up to low system mastery and pressure as well as the "optimal" choices.

Note 2: I felt like I was channeling BB while writing the binder bit. I tried REALLY hard to be delicate about it though.  :bigeyes

Offline dman11235

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Re: The Traps Beginners should be warned of
« Reply #238 on: April 12, 2012, 03:24:54 PM »
Does your campaign work on Hollywood guard logic?  If so, then one character is indeed capable of taking out a guard patrol without raising the alarm.  Does your campaign work on real world guard logic?  If so, then you should be able to remain hidden as a stealth dedicated character, assuming you are optimized to the level of the campaign.  This involves either a high stealth check, magical defenses, not going and scrying instead, a summoned creature with better stealth than you (either from unobtrusiveness or actual stealth), there's lots of ways.  Remember: not every campaign is the same, and in fact, most are at a level where stealth works really well.  I'm going to reiterate this:

A trap is something that performs at a level below the accepted power of the campaign it's designed for.  Something that works less well than something else does not qualify as a trap.  It takes the campaign into account before it qualifies as a trap.  So: spell that functions well at a specific campaign power level that it was designed for: not a trap, even if there's a more powerful spell of the same level that does the same thing but better.
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Offline Mooncrow

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Re: The Traps Beginners should be warned of
« Reply #239 on: April 12, 2012, 03:31:07 PM »
... I'm pretty sure TSS's argument amounts to 'splitting the party is a dumb idea because it gets the scout killed'.

"There are, but those aren't going to kill the scrier. They'll just use a few wand or belt charges."
"Scrying does not involve sending someone off ahead and does not result in one or more people getting killed even if it does backfire. At least not directly."

-- The problem here is the scout getting killed easily if the scouting goes wrong. Which TSS would say is quite likely to happen. You know what happened last time I sent a small bird to scout (as a binder)? It was struck by lightning whenever it got 3 feet from me. This isn't, per se, common, but being a bird doesn't make you immune to encounters.

-- My observation is if the scout doesn't need the party to not get killed by encounters, there's not a ton stopping him from soloing them and marginalizing the party. (Wouldn't be the first time, with a druid.)

And it only took him a couple pages to explain his position.  That's not really a failure on the rest of us.  And your DM doesn't like scouting either?  That's fine, but don't pretend that there are rules that say that lightning will strike every party everywhere. 

And "getting close enough to get a visual and getting away" =/= "soloing the encounter".

But those issues are kind of beside the point.  The initial statement was that scouting was a trap - and since scouting means "gathering information about an area", it's not, and it's misinformation to say that it is.  Apparently though, it's ok to make up new definitions for words and then claim you were right all along :p  That's irritating, yes, but notice I didn't argue the point - until your nonsense cropped up at least - I'll be damned if I'll have my words twisted because someone cba to open a dictionary.