The Traps Beginners should be warned of

[Rejakor]

Yeah, the whole 'you thought you were foiling prophecy BUT YOU WEREN'T HAHAHAHAHAH FUCKED BY THE GODS' thing is always fun.

[Mooncrow]

I enjoy running games where the gods are just as clueless (if not more so) than mortals about the future^^ 

[veekie]

Well, in either case its rendered ineffective because in one, the future is set in stone(read, heavy railroading), and your knowledge just acts as free foreshadowing which would have happened anyway if you didn't have the ability, in another, there is no specific future(sandbox types), and you get frustratingly vague info as the DM mad-libs or hedges.

Interesting opportunity here.
If the party decides to slaughter the royal family and forcefully implement democracy on the people, the party later uncovers information regarding the Ancient Democratic Republic of Brigamia.
Certain things in magic only make sense if you draw the causal arrows in the reverse direction, and in a world with both free will and prophecies, watch your players realize that their actions change the past.
(Note: This might wind up scary, or just lazy.)

Yeah but then you wind up with the divination being of little value again.

[Unbeliever]

^ Divination is less a trap than a practical problem.  The DM doesn't know the future, after all.  This can be worked around either by using divination as essentially a form of scouting, e.g,. "who are we fighting today?  Cool, let me prepare these spells."  Or, as a sort of Uncanny Forethought type of effect, as it is in some games.  You'd leave a resource "open" to be filled later based on your divination. 

[oslecamo]

There's also stuff like True Strike (buffing attack acuraccy), See Invisibility and True Seeing (counter other magics), and then Moment of Prescience (floating buff that can discharged later). Also stuff like boosting Knowledge checks and whatnot.

[veekie]

Yeah, I'm referring to 'true' divinations that augur the future directly. Its cool in concept but ultimately impractical to use as more than glorified scouting. Given that they tend to have XP costs, this does make them somewhat unappealing.

[Rejakor]

Honestly given that the unfoolable divinations are basically 'whatever a god feels like telling you' the DM can do whatever he wants with it.  The rest are specifically cryptic and vague and you can just rejigger the world to make them come true if you must.  It's not railroading if you state 'yes' to a possibility and then the party dodges the possibility, it's just the world re-arranging itself as per pratchett's law of narrative causality.

[lans]

EDIT:  lans, orc barb with greatsword who ploughs all his feats into Skill Focus does perfectly fine, and will be the star of the show even in a med-high op environment (colour spray looks lame compared to lotso'damage) up til level 6.  In a low op environment, with sufficient lootdrop luck or a DM who lets you buy and sell shit, that stuff stays relevant to 20.

I am aware of this, but if an THF orc barb 6 with 3 skill focuses can be star of the show at level 6, then a sword and boarder barb 1, fighter 2, warblade 3 with agile shield fighter, and other relevant feats, is going to due like wise.

EDIT EDIT:  And I dunno what that is about enchantment.  Enchantment rocks the house.  Lots of bruiser monsters and things you can shut down completely with enchantment.  The problem is if you go will save focused, and then you're fighting undead for the next 5 levels.  Also some DMs fucking hate save or dies and will shut you down if you focus on them by piling on massive saving throws or immunities - this comes under 'bad DMing'.  You are the DM, your monsters are SUPPOSED to die.  If they die too quick, make more shittier monsters not one big monster and look at that the single target SoD specialist is suddenly using shitty fireballs.  Ofc if you then do that 100% of the time, still shitty DMing.

The problem with enchantment is that it can be shut down by a religion change and first level spells.

[Rejakor]

There really aren't that many low-int monsters that can have a religion change and pick up and cast 1st level cleric spells in the 6 seconds of a combat round.  And while Dominate Monster will be foiled by Protection from X, a lot of other Enchantment spells won't.  Charm and Dominate aren't the only Enchantment SoDs, they're just the Core ones that give you a pokemans.

As for THF vs S&B... well, this thread is at least loosely about traps for newbies, right?  THF works perfectly fine with terrible feats right out of the box as long as strength is high and the person vaguely understands tactics.  S&B requires a pretty high standard of system mastery.  With terrible feats and decent str/con, S&B just gets bypassed or misses alot or hits for piddly damage.  It doesn't help that S&B is seen as thematically a Fighter thing, and Fighters suck even worse than Barbarians with nonoptimized feats.

Basically, a THF without feats can still contribute, especially if the casters also aren't optimized.  A S&B without feats or system mastery (i.e. fighter 6 with weapon focus and Endurance) is much less likely to contribute (although chokepoints or whatever mean he could still technically do it).  I mean, strength is still doing the workload, so an orc fighter 6 with S&B using a bastard sword isn't TERRIBLE at his job, he's still doing 1d10+6 on 2 swings compared to the orc barbarian 6's 2d6 + 12 on 2 swings, but he is definitely LESS GOOD and while noobs go 'barbarian orc with greataxe' as a recognized trope, for a defense fighter they're going to be like a fucking elf or human or something, and have 16 str.  And swinging for 1d8+3 while some other guy swings for 1d12+12 in a frothing rage is pretty humiliating.  Not to mention the PA synergy for barbs that fighters just don't get (and that barbs usually have the to-hit to take advantage of).

[lans]

There really aren't that many low-int monsters that can have a religion change and pick up and cast 1st level cleric spells in the 6 seconds of a combat round.  And while Dominate Monster will be foiled by Protection from X, a lot of other Enchantment spells won't.  Charm and Dominate aren't the only Enchantment SoDs, they're just the Core ones that give you a pokemans.

I might of been too vague there, by religion change, I meant having 5+hd and worshiping an elder evil, which could happen  in a 6 second round of combat. Its also gets shut down by shape soulmeld(something i don't recall). Its like archery in what stops it.

As for THF vs S&B... well, this thread is at least loosely about traps for newbies, right?  THF works perfectly fine with terrible feats right out of the box as long as strength is high and the person vaguely understands tactics.  S&B requires a pretty high standard of system mastery.  With terrible feats and decent str/con, S&B just gets bypassed or misses alot or hits for piddly damage.  It doesn't help that S&B is seen as thematically a Fighter thing, and Fighters suck even worse than Barbarians with nonoptimized feats.

Basically, a THF without feats can still contribute, especially if the casters also aren't optimized.  A S&B without feats or system mastery (i.e. fighter 6 with weapon focus and Endurance) is much less likely to contribute (although chokepoints or whatever mean he could still technically do it).  I mean, strength is still doing the workload, so an orc fighter 6 with S&B using a bastard sword isn't TERRIBLE at his job, he's still doing 1d10+6 on 2 swings compared to the orc barbarian 6's 2d6 + 12 on 2 swings, but he is definitely LESS GOOD and while noobs go 'barbarian orc with greataxe' as a recognized trope, for a defense fighter they're going to be like a fucking elf or human or something, and have 16 str.  And swinging for 1d8+3 while some other guy swings for 1d12+12 in a frothing rage is pretty humiliating.  Not to mention the PA synergy for barbs that fighters just don't get (and that barbs usually have the to-hit to take advantage of).

True, but its workable with a bit of optimization, which is why I don't think it should be listed as a trap, unless dude who grabs greatsword and uses nothing but strength and pa is also a trap. An attack routine of 2d6+8/2d6+4

(click to show/hide)

(agile shield fighter, reckless stance[could go sword sage for burning blade])

is better than 2d6+16

(click to show/hide)

(rage and pa to match agile shield fighter penalties for ease of math)

. I think their might be room for a yellow option which is what sword and board should  be.

[veekie]

I might of been too vague there, by religion change, I meant having 5+hd and worshiping an elder evil, which could happen  in a 6 second round of combat. Its also gets shut down by shape soulmeld(something i don't recall). Its like archery in what stops it.

Thats not quite something that doesn't work by default though, since you have to go to quite specific means to get those effects. So not a justification for trap status(whereas widespread monster natural immunity can be), so much as a justification that it is easy to disable.

Remember, if it takes anything that doesn't come with a standard statblock, that applies more to PCs than to monsters. DMs don't usually rig the game that hard. They don't need to when they can just throw bigger, badder or more numerous foes.

[Rejakor]

Str and Power Attack - are CORE, and are EASILY RECOGNIZED FANTASY TROPES.

Agile Shield Fighter is what, fucking Complete Warrior?  You're also using a 2d6 weapon in each hand as a S&B fighter which is what, an ACF, a feat, something I don't recognize?  Reckless Stance I don't even know, and you're also advocating dipping Swordsage, which is entirely different to a) what i'm talking about (low op games, terrible fighting mans, poor feat choices, core options, noob trap choices) b) a core barbarian c) one of the most banned books by noobs (even if for no reason as it's in no way overpowered or even powerful).  That's like, shifting goalposts to the max.

You're also assuming equal attack bonus, even though i'm pretty sure agile shield fighter requires dex 15 (and barbarian 2h power attack does not, so barb probably has base 18 str vs agile shield fighter's 16) and the Fighter can't rage (unless he's a barb, and at this point you're going to talk about using Whirling Frenzy, from I believe Cityscape, to qualify for feats) and I mean sure he can then go to Improved Trip or Shield Charge or Pouncing Agile Shield Charge Trip or whatever the fuck but NONE OF THAT IS TRAPS BEGINNERS SHOULD BE WARNED OF.

Yes, occasionally beginners read and make a variant Jack B Quick chain tripper build using shields.  MOSTLY, however, they just have a PHB and open it up and make their favourite fantasy character (poorly).  The Fighter class says 'the fighter is a tactical warrior' and they BELIEVE it.  So 99% of BEGINNER sword and boarders are fighters, and usually not orcs (because ORCS ARE BARBARIANS, SAYS FANTASY TROPES).  That is why it is a TRAP BEGINNERS SHOULD BE WARNED OF.


Also, as a kind of off-topic note, the level of optimization that S&B fighter you outlined has was well into shock trooper/leap attack territory and most of the way (swordsage dips?  Reckless stance?  Agile Shield Fighter trip combos?) into Hood territory, if we're truthfully comparing it to the 2handed optimization equivalent.

[SorO_Lost]

S&B is totally awesome.

If your sword is in your offhand, made out of wood, and casts spells.
And your spiked shield is your primary weapon.

[Bauglir]

@Rejakor

Chill, doodabuddy. You're looking at the title a bit more holistically than the people you're talking to, which makes a certain amount of sense. The people you're arguing with seem to be talking about things that are "Traps, which means beginners should be warned" instead of "Traps that beginners, in particular, are exceptionally prone to" - though, to be fair, most beginners would need a good deal of luck to wind up with something that wouldn't be decried by half this board as a "gimp" or a "trap" build. In an environment lacking the system mastery needed to understand our basic strategies in a build, a sword and board fighter is gonna do just fine. After all, it worked for the designers, who displayed about as poor an understanding of the system when writing core as you'd expect from somebody new to the game (because they were).

[SorO_Lost]

Meh they were still new at the end of 3.5 two.

At the start they figured AC is good, S&B gives bonuses to AC. It's a viable defensive option. Near the end they were like, let's create some generics so PCs can use more cool gear without sacrificing the basic needed items. Like Enhancement bonuses to AC, Deflection bonuses to AC, and let's allow them to add Enhancement bonuses to Clothing in case they can't wear armor. AC, AC, AC.

[Halinn]

Given the attack numbers of standard monsters, and the expected frequency of physical encounters (as opposed to magical ones), AC is a valid form of defense. It's just the problem that the standard numbers are woefully sub-par when pitted against the offensive power of even slightly optimized characters, so either numbers are boosted up until AC is unsustainable, or non-physical encounters are vastly increased in frequency.

[SorO_Lost]

Given the attack numbers of standard monsters, and the expected frequency of physical encounters (as opposed to magical ones), AC is a valid form of defense.

Are we talking about the same game here?

Core, CR 12 (because that's what I clicked on in the drag down box).
Frost Worm, looks like melee with it's one crappy bite. Oooh, that's because it has an at-will mass stun.
Kolyarut (inevitable), yeah it attacks, using touch spells.
Kraken, certainly melee. Still has SLAs through.
Leonal, thunder, thunder, thundercats roar!!! Just kidding, it's fireball, fireball, forcewall, dominate monster with a side of pounce/rake.
Purple Worm, melee! And no SLAs.
Roper, 50ft ranged touch attack that deals Str damage in preparation of pinning you and eating your corpse.
Only two of those care what your normal AC is. The rest target touch AC or can ignore it. That's 2/6, or 33%, or NOT half. Not at all.

And yes, things keep scaling more towards caster themed monsters. Maybe they appear like they should melee, or stab with claws, or bite faces off, but they are front loaded with SLAs and Save targeting special attacks that if you were to ever blow several thousands (and I do mean several here) of gold on your AC they can simply choose to ignore it.

It's just the problem that the standard numbers are woefully sub-par when pitted against the offensive power of even slightly optimized characters

Huh? This has nothing to do with PCs. That reads off like you're talking about a monster's AC. I was and have been talking about the player's AC.

But yes, an optimized character's offense greatly exceeds AC found in monsters.
And on the monster end, there is of course a huge problem. If you don't give creatures a bunch of special abilities and quirks increasing their CR then you have to give them HD progression to achieve the desired CR. Problem with that is monster types gain a minimum of 2 HD per CR increase (many gain 4). Seriously doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the problem there. The system is totally designed to ignore AC, either by pumping more HD into a monster so it has insane HP, high saves/BAB, or giving it stuff to ignore AC outright but the rest of it's state block is manageable.

[Bauglir]

And yes, things keep scaling more towards caster themed monsters. Maybe they appear like they should melee, or stab with claws, or bite faces off, but they are front loaded with SLAs and Save targeting special attacks that if you were to ever blow several thousands (and I do mean several here) of gold on your AC they can simply choose to ignore it.

And the argument being made is that they won't. Another way of saying it is that the game was playtested by the designers, and they thought it was reasonably well balanced. They obviously had no idea what they were doing, but that's not the point - unless you're into conspiracy theories, there exists a set of games for which AC made sense as an important stat.

But I will agree with the opening of that post. Arguably, we aren't talking about the same game. The written rules might be basically the same, but the assumptions behind them are so wildly different that you might as well be comparing little league baseball players to professionals. It's not merely the degree of talent that's different.

[veekie]

And on the monster end, there is of course a huge problem. If you don't give creatures a bunch of special abilities and quirks increasing their CR then you have to give them HD progression to achieve the desired CR. Problem with that is monster types gain a minimum of 2 HD per CR increase (many gain 4). Seriously doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the problem there. The system is totally designed to ignore AC, either by pumping more HD into a monster so it has insane HP, high saves/BAB, or giving it stuff to ignore AC outright but the rest of it's state block is manageable.

The simpler issue there is that the majority of games do not advance monsters, and standard AC values can handle(though imperfectly) stock monster attack values. Special attacks of course, are a problem, but unadvanced, even if the attack costs you actions, the monster is actually fairly unlikely to wipe out the whole party in the time you are down.

Monster advancement and CO tactics are screwball on the CR estimation because they playtested with the fully statted monsters and the iconic party of blaster, healer, sneak and S&B.

[SorO_Lost]

Oh, it goes back to the creation of monsters too. Even the authors tried to follow those guide lines. Elite Array (or w/e), Racial HD to X for base CR, plus CR increases based on abilities added. Of course the CR system is a broad spectrum measurement that leads to failures but that's another story...