Paragon

[PolkaBear]

I'm interested in adding the following excellences addressing psionic classes:

Excellences:

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Paragon Psionics: You need to be able to manifest psionic powers or PLAs to pick this Excellence. Paragon levels keep increasing your ML for all your powers and PLAs (unless they were already tied to HD, in which case their ML simply improves by 1), and you can have the base DC of your powers be 10+1/2 HD+your highest mental stat mod instead of 10+power level+Main manifesting stat mod.

Paragon Manifester: You need Paragon Psionics and to be able to manifest psionic powers to take this Excellence. You gain new powers per day and power points as if you had gained two new levels in a psionic class you belonged to before taking this Excellence, and learn five powers of any level you can cast from the power list of that same psionic class.  You may take this Excellence two times: its effects stack.

Greater Excellences:

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Paragon Power: You need Paragon Manifester to pick this Greater Excellence. Choose one of your powers. It gains +1 to ML and DC, and now ignores any previous limits on ML it had. Plus every time you manifest that power, you have a 75% chance of recovering the power points spent on it.

Paragon Psionicist: You need Paragon Power to pick this Greater Excellence. You gain new powers per day and power points as if you had gained two new levels in a psionic class you belonged to before taking this Excellence, and learn seven powers of any level you can cast from the power list of that same manifesting class.  You may take this Greater Excellence two times: its effects stack.

Perfect Excellences:

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Paragon Mind - You need Paragon Psionicist to pick this Perfect Excellence. You gain new powers per day and power points as if you had gained two new levels in a psionic class you belonged to before taking this Excellence, and learn nine powers of any level you can cast from the power list of that same manifesting class.  You may take this Perfect Excellence three times: its effects stack.

[Anomander]

Paragon Acrobatics
Perhaps I'm wrong but by "spear tips and clouds as long as they grant cover and/or concealment or block line of sight or effect.", I think you meant "spear tips and clouds as long as they do not block line of effect."
Mostly because if you can walk over spaces blocking line of sight or effect, it means you can walk through walls.
Otherwise, by "can now move over any kind of space without hindrance", I'm wondering if that is only as far as movement is concerned.
Like being able to move through fog without slowing down but still having difficulty seeing through it (otherwise its not just Paragon Acrobatics but some kind Paragon Eyesight).
It also seems to mean that you can move through Air, effectively granting a flight speed. It all makes Paragon Athletics feel kind of useless compared to it.

[oslecamo]

Over isn't the same thing as trough. Clarified the diference. You can get over a cloud, you can't dive and "swim" inside it.

PolkaBear:Thanks, added! Altough I nerfed them a little since psionics is more versatile than casting already.

[Retrokinesis]

Am I correct in thinking that, if you take all the magic excellencies, you essentially end up 3 levels behind a pure caster? +2 every 2 levels, except for the 1st (when you take Paragon Caster) and 10th (because you can only take Paragon Mage twice, not three times)?

[oslecamo]

Eerr, you can take paragon magia three times. You only end one level behind. Massive stat bonus, all good saves,skills, d12 HD full bab and some extra goodies make up for it.

[Retrokinesis]

Ah, OK, I was forgetting that the third Paragon Magia basically goes back and "fills out" one of the dead levels because it's only 15 levels. My mistake .

[phaedrusxy]

Wow... I didn't read through all of this, because there is a lot of it, and it is 1 AM, but... this is really pretty interesting! It's almost like an Omni-PrC. I really like the fluff and most of the abilities I read. I might have to try this out!

[CattyNebulart]

I'm thinking Paragon Manifester and Paragon Caster are way too strong. Getting two levels per excellence pick is kind of crazy, especially as you can get an extra excellence from a feat. So you could actually end up ahead of a pure caster, in addition to the goodies of this class. Even without that consider a wizard 5/Paragon 5 which picked the three magic excelencies, he's casting like a 9'th level wizard (one level behind), but with much better saves, bab, enegry resistance, stat boosts, etc. At wizard 5/paragon 8 if he uses his 12'th level feat for another excellence then he can cast as a wizard 13, but with a paragon spell and a whole bunch of other goodies.

Paragon Fighting Style seems about right though, since the crusader and warblade each offer only one new manuver every two levels. So stronger than a feat but not too much stronger, however the Paragon Warrior seems a bit weak, especially compared to the caster ones and IL naturally goes up with HD. Also there is no such thing as a initiating stat mod, it depends on the school. I suggest the followinging fixes;


Paragon Warrior: Paragon levels add to your full initiator level for all your martial classes (if any, unless they were already tied to HD, in which case their effective initiator level for the purpose of maneuver variables improves by 1), and you can have the base DC of your maneuvers be 10+1/2 HD+your highest mental stat mod instead of 10+maneuver level+stat mod. You gain access to a martial discipline and learn two manuvers (not stances) from the discipline, one of which must be first level. If you do not already have initiator levels you can have only one manuver readied and have no recovery mechanism, but choose a martial base class (Crusader, Swordsage, or Warblade) you count as belonging to that class for purposes of things which raise your initiator class levels (such as Paragon Fighting Style). The martial discipline so learned is available to all you martial classes.

Paragon Fighting Style: You must belong to a martial class to take this excellence. You gain new maneuvers known, maneuvers readied and stances known, and can swap manuvers as if you had gained two new levels in a martial class you belonged to before taking this Excellence, your initiator level also improves by one. You can take this excellence up to 3 times.
Note: To be clear the 2 levels of an initiator class grant new manuvers but they do not raise your IL.

[oslecamo]

You can't surpass a normal caster's casting because each of the related excellences is capped. Paragon Caster/Mage can each only be picked twice, so by the time you can pick the feat for extra excellences, you would've already been able to pick either two times for +4 casting capacity for each 5 paragon levels.

As how much a lost caster level is worth, well, that's quite the hot topic.

Paragon warrior-Clearly you missed the fine print. The Paragon isn't about unlocking new abilities out of nowhere, it's about building up in already existing abilities. So no maneuvers out of nowhere. You can just dip an actual martial class for that.

As for the IL boosting, the intent was that Paragon levels would grant fully IL instead of the typical half, will clarify that.

Will also clarify the stat thingy.

And add in the swaping as well for Paragon Fighting style and the possibility for being taken multiple times. And I'll leave it at that since it also unlocks a new school and extra school each time it is taken.

[CattyNebulart]

You can't surpass a normal caster's casting because each of the related excellences is capped. Paragon Caster/Mage can each only be picked twice, so by the time you can pick the feat for extra excellences, you would've already been able to pick either two times for +4 casting capacity for each 5 paragon levels.

Ok granted, but that still leaves a 5wiz/5paragon casting as a 9'th level wizard, and for that one caster level they gain fast healing, dr and resistances, much better saves and hitpoints, a big improvement in bab, and a variety of minor benefits. Even at just 1 level per Excellency it's still probably the strongest choice of excellencies.

As for the IL boosting, the intent was that Paragon levels would grant fully IL instead of the typical half, will clarify that.

My point is that compared to the other options, especially the caster ones it significantly lags behind. I don't think anyone will dispute that caster and manifester levels are better than initiator levels, and yet Paragon Warrior gives essentially half the benefit of the caster and manifester excellencies. It is way too weak or the other options are way too strong.

[Anomander]

I thought it was pretty obvious that, no matter how you look at it, that PRC is meant to be superior to almost every other options out there. That's why it's called Paragon. Just looking at the HD/BAB/Save/Skill progression should be a good enough hint of that.

Though, Catty is right in that Paragon can be used to exceed a caster's progression.
If a wizard goes Wizard 5/Paragon 1, chooses the Excellence "Paragon Magic" and then takes "Extra Excellence" for his 6th level feat to get "Paragon Caster", you end up level 7 on your wizard caster progression at level 6. Going into a full caster PRC afterwards keeps ahead all the way.

I will note that the Initiator excellencies are *very* strong for a devoted initiator in that it raises Initiator level for all classes. Unlike casters, they thus gain access to higher level maneuvers for all classes instead of just one simultaneously with a single pick. Taking maneuver levels afterwards will allow you to multiclass around and get a bunch of high level maneuvers for a short dip into Paragon.

[Retrokinesis]

Except, if I'm reading it correctly, you don't seem to be able to take Extra Excellence until you have at least one GREATER Excellence, which you don't have until Paragon 6.

[oslecamo]

Yes, spellcasting > everything else. However my reasoning is that the paragon abilities help out a martial user a lot more than an actual caster/psionic.

Potential for starters boost d20 rolls and damage rolls. A caster/psionic only really has use for it for boosting saves, while a martial user gets out a lot more mileage for attack rolls and skill checks, which a lot of manevers demand.

Then, a caster usually would've already had his ability DCs tied to one single ability score, but the martial user had to deal with each martial school having a diferent tied ability. Thus relatively speaking, Paragon warrior (replace multiple scores for one) does more than Paragon Magic (you're probably still basing yourself in your old main score).

At 3rd level when you get your second excellence, the caster is one casting level behind. The martial user however isn't actually a level behind, since paragon levels grant full IL, and you unlock new maneuver levels based on IL, not martial class level. Like Anomander pointed out, that can unlock some cool multiclassing tricks. Plus the martial user unlocked a new school and got an extra maneuver from it, while the caster is still limited to his old list.

Extra stuff like Know The Trick actually help more the Martial Paragon, since the caster could've already got those tricks any other way if he wanted to. Also as they say, if you're the caster and you're taking hits you're doing it wrong (because it disrupts your casting), while martial users are usually frontliners, so fast healing, d12 HD,resistances and DR again help them more than the caster.

Also finally, if the caster is taking paragon levels, it means they aren't taking borked fullcasting prc X levels.

I thought it was pretty obvious that, no matter how you look at it, that PRC is meant to be superior to almost every other options out there. That's why it's called Paragon. Just looking at the HD/BAB/Save/Skill progression should be a good enough hint of that.

Well, I'm seeing if I can at least keep it in the same level as the other prcs around here. Multiclassing paragon shouldn't be an auto-choice. Notice that you can'se use flaws with it (and feats are damn precious), and pretty much every ability has prerequisites of sort. The original draft had even heavier ones (like Paragon Magic demanding Combat Casting), so if people think it's too good right now, I'll be happy to put more prerequisites back. However I get the feel it turned out quite popular due to the amount of feedback.

Though, Catty is right in that Paragon can be used to exceed a caster's progression.
If a wizard goes Wizard 5/Paragon 1, chooses the Excellence "Paragon Magic" and then takes "Extra Excellence" for his 6th level feat to get "Paragon Caster", you end up level 7 on your wizard caster progression at level 6. Going into a full caster PRC afterwards keeps ahead all the way.

Read the small prints damnit! You can't take Extra Excellence until you've unlocked Greater Excellence, that demands 5 paragon levels!

Ah, gloom'd by Retrokinesis.

[Anomander]

Read the small prints damnit! You can't take Extra Excellence until you've unlocked Greater Excellence, that demands 5 paragon levels!

To my shame. 

As for the preqs of the Excellencies, I felt it was almost possible that you'd end up not being able to get one for lack of fulfilling them.
For Paragon Toughness, perhaps getting Improved Toughness instead of Toughness would be better. Toughness is so horrible it seems cruel to require it.

Is it possible to spend a Greater Excellence to get a normal one or a Perfect for a Greater?
Some of the normal ones are actually pretty damn good.

[Amechra]

You know what, the number of Invocations you would get through the different Paragon Caster-type abilities is annoying me, so now I will post the following:

Paragon Conduit
You must have Paragon Magic and the ability to use Invocations to select this Excellence.
You may learn 2 Invocations of any grade up to and including Lesser. You may take this excellence twice.

Paragon Vessel (Greater Excellence)
You must have Paragon Conduit and the ability to use Invocations to select this Excellence.
You may learn 2 Invocations of any grade up to and including Greater. You may take this excellence twice.

Paragon Vessel (Perfect Excellence)
You must have Paragon Servant and the ability to use Invocations to select this Excellence.
You may learn 2 Invocations of any grade up to and including Dark (or equivalent). You may take this excellence thrice.

[phaedrusxy]

I will note that the Initiator excellencies are *very* strong for a devoted initiator in that it raises Initiator level for all classes. Unlike casters, they thus gain access to higher level maneuvers for all classes instead of just one simultaneously with a single pick. Taking maneuver levels afterwards will allow you to multiclass around and get a bunch of high level maneuvers for a short dip into Paragon.

All initiator prestige classes add their full levels to the initiator level for all of your martial adept base classes. This is spelled out in ToB somewhere.

For example, Swordsage 1/Cleric 1/Monk 1/Crusader 2/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/Master of Nine 5 would have an IL of 18 for crusader and 17 for swordsage.

So Paragon Warrior really just makes this class work like all the other martial adept/initiator prestige classes, except for the saving throw boost.

[Retrokinesis]

You know what, the number of Invocations you would get through the different Paragon Caster-type abilities is annoying me, so now I will post the following:

Paragon Conduit
You must have Paragon Magic and the ability to use Invocations to select this Excellence.
You may learn 2 Invocations of any grade up to and including Lesser. You may take this excellence twice.

Paragon Vessel (Greater Excellence)
You must have Paragon Conduit and the ability to use Invocations to select this Excellence.
You may learn 2 Invocations of any grade up to and including Greater. You may take this excellence twice.

Paragon Servant (Perfect Excellence)
You must have Paragon Servant and the ability to use Invocations to select this Excellence.
You may learn 2 Invocations of any grade up to and including Lesser. You may take this excellence twice.

I think it's a mistake, but you seem to have Paragon Servant requiring itself and doing the same thing as Paragon Conduit. Shouldn't one of them grant Dark Invocations? Also, the Perfect Excellence version should be able to be chosen 3 times instead of 2 if you want it to follow the same pattern as the magic one.

[Amechra]

Damn it, a copypasta error! I shall fix.

[Anomander]

All initiator prestige classes add their full levels to the initiator level for all of your martial adept base classes.

I've always assumed the contrary but I read again and you are indeed correct. It doesn't seem to specifically indicate that it adds full initiator level to every martial base classes, merely saying that it adds full initiator level. But it doesn't clearly say it doesn't either, so that's enough for me.
Learn something every day.

[oslecamo]

Read the small prints damnit! You can't take Extra Excellence until you've unlocked Greater Excellence, that demands 5 paragon levels!

To my shame. 

As for the preqs of the Excellencies, I felt it was almost possible that you'd end up not being able to get one for lack of fulfilling them.
For Paragon Toughness, perhaps getting Improved Toughness instead of Toughness would be better. Toughness is so horrible it seems cruel to require it.

Is it possible to spend a Greater Excellence to get a normal one or a Perfect for a Greater?
Some of the normal ones are actually pretty damn good.

Improved Toughness isn't core. Also Weapon Focus, Iron Will and friends aren't that hot either.
If you want more excellences, pick the feats. The prc itself is suposed to keep building up on previous abilities. Also if you think the Greater and Perfect are weaker than the normal ones, I'm all hears.

Amechra:Yeah, you're probably right about the caster ones ending up granting too much invocations. Added yours!