DISCUSSION: Core-only Wizard20 vs a Splatbook-Enabled Fighter20 - Lycan's Duel

[Endarire]

Thread here.

Please don't turn this thread into a flame war or a debate over whether character X could beat character Y under Z cirumstances!

[sirpercival]

You've duplicated the words "Great Wyrm Gold Dragons" near the end of the paragraph starting: "I tossed the Ring Gates onto the ground (entrance-side up),".

I read this on the WotC boards a while ago... my problem with it is that the F20 is clearly not a very strong optimizer (as evidenced by the challenge anyway), especially in tactics.  It just wasn't convincing tactics-wise... run up and hit it?  Seriously?

That being said, I know I wouldn't have been able to build a fighter to deal with Lycan's Wiz20... and I wouldn't have tried to prove that point anyway, because there's no way to win.

I mean, I guess the only thing you can really do is try to chuck Antimagic Cookies at the wizard if you can get into range.

[betrayor]

While there are mistakes in the tactics Lycan used,for example you can not extend time stop and  calling half-celestial Great Wyrm dragon with gate is absurd,I think that there is no way for a fighter 20 to beat a Wizard 20 unless the wizard is totally stupid.....

[Halinn]

While there are mistakes in the tactics Lycan used,for example you can not extend time stop and  calling half-celestial Great Wyrm dragon with gate is absurd,I think that there is no way for a fighter 20 to beat a Wizard 20 unless the wizard is totally stupid.....

The extension and the dragons weren't the important bits anyhow. It was the absolute defense, combined with being able to act while inside said defense, and having various safety measures in place even if the defenses were pierced.

[sirpercival]

Why can't you extend a Time Stop?  You can't Persist, but I've never seen anything preventing Extension.

[Garryl]

The official errata (or was it the FAQ?) ruled that Time Stop is actually an instantaneous effect. It doesn't have a duration to extend. Although you could still empower/maximize it.

[sirpercival]

The official errata (or was it the FAQ?) ruled that Time Stop is actually an instantaneous effect. It doesn't have a duration to extend. Although you could still empower/maximize it.

Oh, ok.  I didn't remember how they had prevented Persisting, but they did it in a way that prevented Extending as well.  You couldn't both Empower and Maximize it, though... only 1 rod per casting

[Garryl]

If you can't say "I win" with 4 extra rounds (maximized = 5, but it still costs you 1 turn to cast the Time Stop itself), you're not trying.

[sirpercival]

Luckily saying "I win" is a free action 

[betrayor]

While there are mistakes in the tactics Lycan used,for example you can not extend time stop and  calling half-celestial Great Wyrm dragon with gate is absurd,I think that there is no way for a fighter 20 to beat a Wizard 20 unless the wizard is totally stupid.....

The extension and the dragons weren't the important bits anyhow. It was the absolute defense, combined with being able to act while inside said defense, and having various safety measures in place even if the defenses were pierced.

Agreed of course,I only pointed out the mistakes,but it is true that it is almost imposible for a fighter 20 to beat a wizard 20, the only way I could see it happening would be if the fighter spend all his resources on UMD and even then he would just have a 5% to win,of course this would have nothing to do with the fighter and everything to do with UMD and how powerful magic is......

[Agita]

It's largely a moot point anyway, as Lycan himself noted he didn't even really need the ten rounds. He also had a Rod of Quicken, so... yeah.

[JohnnyMayHymn]

Feats are a Fighters shtick right? Leadership for a DMM Cleric cohort.

[Lycanthromancer]

I suppose there are a few lessons to be learned here. Mainly, A.) Core-only is insanely broken compared to non-Core, B.) Turtling is only an effective strategy if you can actually affect the fight when you do it, and C.) "Run up and hit it" doesn't work on an intelligently played opponent.

And you thought Tucker's kobolds were bad. Tucker's wizards are infinitely worse.

[Halinn]

I suppose there are a few lessons to be learned here. Mainly, A.) Core-only is insanely broken compared to non-Core, B.) Turtling is only an effective strategy if you can actually affect the fight when you do it, and C.) "Run up and hit it" doesn't work on an intelligently played opponent.

And you thought Tucker's kobolds were bad. Tucker's wizards are infinitely worse.

I don't suppose you have the character sheets from that duel stored anywhere?
Also, the mere idea of Tucker's wizards scares me. A lot.

[Lycanthromancer]

I suppose there are a few lessons to be learned here. Mainly, A.) Core-only is insanely broken compared to non-Core, B.) Turtling is only an effective strategy if you can actually affect the fight when you do it, and C.) "Run up and hit it" doesn't work on an intelligently played opponent.

And you thought Tucker's kobolds were bad. Tucker's wizards are infinitely worse.

I don't suppose you have the character sheets from that duel stored anywhere?

I do not, but it was a Core-only wizard who didn't actually use his feats for anything useful. He could've had Toughness and Endurance for all he cared (and Quicken Spell). I don't even remember if I even bothered with putting all of them on his sheet. High Int, spell pouch, books full of spells, and the listed equipment. That was about it, far as I can recall.

It's the spells that define a wizard; the rest is intelligent use of resources and willingness to be ruthless with them.

Also, the mere idea of Tucker's wizards scares me. A lot.

You and me both. I do play Tucker's Psions a lot, though, but it's mostly so I can do a lot with very little.

I remember when I took down a CR 33 shadow dragon dracolich with a paralyzed level 16 psion.

Yay shapers!

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Feats are a Fighters shtick right? Leadership for a DMM Cleric cohort.

Or to simplify, go with a cohort Wizard 17
otherwise with the exact same build as Lycan's.

iirc - the use of Leadership leads to an argument
about having a Wizard of just 1 level higher than
the Cohort Wizard.  The Fighter is largely immaterial.
But that's a whole 'nother thread (of wangst).

[Lycanthromancer]

The official errata (or was it the FAQ?) ruled that Time Stop is actually an instantaneous effect. It doesn't have a duration to extend. Although you could still empower/maximize it.

Oh, ok.  I didn't remember how they had prevented Persisting, but they did it in a way that prevented Extending as well.  You couldn't both Empower and Maximize it, though... only 1 rod per casting

Do note that you can add both Empower and Maximize onto the same rod and it would work.

[Endarire]

Fixed the Great Wyrm Great Wyrm thingy.

I hope the 'handbook' post will deter further Wizard vs. Non-caster duels.  We have evidence of this answer.

Still, if you were the Fighter, what would you have done to help ensure victory?

[Halinn]

Fixed the Great Wyrm Great Wyrm thingy.

I hope the 'handbook' post will deter further Wizard vs. Non-caster duels.  We have evidence of this answer.

Still, if you were the Fighter, what would you have done to help ensure victory?

Tried to mitigate the caster advantage through magic items. In this specific case, I do not believe that victory could even be possible for a fighter, but the original thread had some decent ideas on how a fighter could approach a similar fight against a less prepared wizard.

[SorO_Lost]

Still, if you were the Fighter, what would you have done to help ensure victory?

Not be large. Crawling through the rings would have been one hell of an "lol in your face". Hell even shooting arrows (with a glued antimagic torc) into the rings would have been far better than slamming face first into the Prismatic Wall too. >.>

First rule of casters is they need LoE, control the LoE and you control them. Like the Rod there prevented a huge chunk of spells, and being Splatbook-allowed Fighter his Charge damage should have auto KO'ed the Dragons while they were Flat-Footed allowing him to gain some control of the rings, in fact with the caster being Incorporeal the fighter would dominate the control.

I'd think picking up the Wall of Iron (10x10x?) is a concept to consider as well but I'd have to google weight and carry loads for an unknown Strength score etc. Might be feasible to transport it a mile into the air and drop it, if the Wizard doesn't leave it he rings out.

Lastly, rules on how to win mean the Wizard lost to begin with. Bag of Holding is an extra dimensional space, and unlike the Portable Hold, no exact dimensional size, entrance or exit (you always grab what you reach for there is no 'bottom') for all purposes, there no measurable distance between something in the bag and something out of it so nothing can ever be defined as within 1 mile. It doesn't matter that the Astral Projection was close by, fundamentally the Wizard exists in two bodies and therefor is always in a state of qualifying for out of bounds. Not that the issue of attacking the real one ever came up and could be easily removed. But theres a moral to the story there. Wizards never play by the rules.