Author Topic: Improved Eldritch Knight  (Read 6716 times)

Offline RobbyPants

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Improved Eldritch Knight
« on: April 01, 2012, 09:53:27 PM »
This is an idea to take the DMG gish class and make it better. It would still involve the loss of two caster levels, and I'm not sure this alone would be worth it, but I'm looking mostly for an improvement at this point. Also, it references two feats that I've rewritten, so I'll link to those.

Eldritch Knight


Requirements:

Base Attack Bonus: +3
Proficiency: Proficient in at least one martial weapon and in light or heavier armor.
Skills: Concentration 8 ranks.
Feats: Skill Focus (Concentration), Battle Caster.
Special: Able to cast 2nd level arcane spells.


Class Skills:
The eldritch knight's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Jump (Str), Knowledge (any) (Int), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).

Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier.


Chassis:

Hit Die: d8

Base Attack Bonus: Good (1/1)

Saves: Fort: good, Ref: poor, Will: good


Class Features:

Bonus Feat (Ex): At 1st level, the Eldritch Knight gains a bonus feat from the list of fighter bonus feats. The Eldritch Knight must meet the prerequisites for this feat.

Somatic Weaponry (Ex): At 1st level, the Eldritch Knight may use a melee weapon he is wielding for the somatic components of his spells.

Channel Spell (Su): At 1st level, the Eldritch Knight may use a melee weapon to deliver a touch spell (including a reach weapon). This can be resolved as a touch attack (in which case the weapon deals no damage) or as a regular melee attack (in which case the weapon deals normal damage if the attack is successful). In either case, the target is affected by the spell as normal if the attack is successful.

The activation of this ability is the same as the casting time of the spell.

Spells per Day: From 2nd level on, when a new eldritch knight level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that she adds the level of eldritch knight to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly.

If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before she became an eldritch knight, she must decide to which class she adds each level of eldritch knight for the purpose of determining spells per day.

Improved Channel Spell (Su): At 5th level, the Eldritch Knight may make a full attack when casting a touch spell as a full-round action. To use this ability, he must cast a touch spell with a casting time of a full-round or less. He then makes a full attack, and may deliver the touch spell using the rules of his Channel Spell ability on all of the attacks. No one creature may be targeted by the same spell with this ability per round.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2012, 08:19:10 AM by RobbyPants »
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Offline dman11235

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Re: Improved Eldritch Knight
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2012, 10:37:40 PM »
Is this it?  Needs more actual class features.  A capstone, some more minor, but overall insignificant class features to fill dead levels, but I do like the start.

For Channel Spell, do you need to specify that reach weapons still benefit?  Also, I'd lose a casting level at 1 and 5, when you get the full attack.  However, I'd make it so that your CL is your BAB or your CL, whichever is higher.  As a level 1 feature.  Possibly a feat for that instead?  Hmm...need a way to make a caster/mundane to have full CL.*

Ideas for more features: bonus combat feats, quick casting, gain a bonus on attack/damage when channeling, burn a spell to gain massive bonus to attack/damage/AC/whatever, bonus for using a shield when casting (play of Battle Caster? also add armor to this possibly, but you can give shields some love here), bonus for using a weapon when casting, bonus for casting in combat, ability to cast and attack (like Channel Spell, but for buffs or something), and that's all I got now.

EDIT:*my Practiced Caster does this, and assumes a variant where casters and manifesters have ML and CL equal to the class levels plus 1/2 other levels.
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Offline Ziegander

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Re: Improved Eldritch Knight
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2012, 10:44:53 PM »
So, I'm guessing that this is a 5-level class, and at 2nd, 3rd, and 4th level you get nothing but caster level increases? It's oddly spaced. You get a lot of stuff at that first level, but you give up a caster level. Also, lowering it to 5 levels rather than 10 makes it interesting to build a character with as you have to make up for 5 levels of +1 BAB and +1 CL.

Actually, I just had a thought. How do you feel about "gestalting" the traditional Kensai PrC with an adapted form of your improved EK? Mess with the requirements some, stretch it to 10 levels, and in those 10 levels maybe trade out two caster levels, but gain a couple Fighter bonus feats, full BAB, an enchanted weapon (as Kensai, or maybe even improved upon), Channel Spell and Improved Channel Spell, plus Power Surge, Withstand, and Instill (as Kensai). Bump up the HD to d10 and that seems pretty solid to me.

Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Improved Eldritch Knight
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2012, 10:52:14 PM »
It's a 10 level class, but since I didn't make a table, it wasn't apparent.

I am thinking about automatically making everyone's CL = to character level without any feats, getting rid of the need for Practiced Spellcaster.

I don't want the thing to lose any more caster levels than it already loses. I was looking for a basic improvement on the EK as it stands so that it gets a better hit die and saves. I could add more class features, I suppose, but I was mainly looking for a gish chassis. This and Abjurant Champion could get you to 20th level with only two caster level losses.

I'm not super worried about a capstone. I can see why they look nice with them in there, but I figure the chassis is enough reason to keep taking the class.



I'll have to give this all some more thought...
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Offline dman11235

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Re: Improved Eldritch Knight
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2012, 11:10:54 PM »
You know, I was going to mention the Kensai in my list of stuff, but I decided to leave it out.  I didn't think that it would fit as well with this flavor and ability, and just end up being clutter.  However, something like Arcane Archer might work.  Just giving a flat +enhancement bonus to your attacks?  Though that folds into th burn spell for +attack/damage suggestion, it's not necesarily burn a spell.

On capstones: a chassis is never a good idea to play a class off of.  It can be the most powerful thing out there, but it's just boring.  That really one of the biggest reasons dead levels are bad, and capstone levels are no exception.  So you really do need class features frequently enough that the class doesn't get boring, and right now, it gets boring.  With casting, it's hard to gauge, but as a general rule a new level of casting counts as 1/3 of a class feature for no new spell level, and 2/3 of a class feature when you get a new spell level.  So try and figure out the most common expected entry for the class, and play off that.  Speaking of entry, I do not like those requirements.  You can enter as straight sorcerer at level 4 I believe.  Take the Battle Sorcerer sub and I think you can do it.  Warmage definitely can, but not until level 6.  Although I feel your pain, because I don't think there's going to be a good way to force a mundane class into the mix.
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Offline Ziegander

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Re: Improved Eldritch Knight
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2012, 11:32:27 PM »
Requirements
BAB: +3 or higher
Skills: Concentration 5 ranks
Feats: Somatic Weaponry, Weapon Focus
Proficiency: With at least one martial weapon
Spells: Able to cast 1st level arcane spells

HD: d10
BAB: +1 per level
Saves: Good Fort, Poor Ref, Good Will

Skills: 4+Int points per level, skill list as above.

1.   Bonus Feat, Signature Weapon
2.   Power Surge, +1 Caster level
3.   Channel Spell, +1 Caster level
4.   Bonus Feat, +1 Caster level
5.   Withstand, +1 Caster level
6.   Improved Channel Spell
7.   Bonus Feat, +1 Caster level
8.   Instill, +1 Caster level
9.   Full Channel Spell, +1 Caster level
10. Bonus Feat, +1 Caster level

Now, that's not a bad class. It isn't the direction you want to take it, I know, but it's still pretty interesting. Improved Channel Spell would allow for the Channeling of any sort of spell, including AoE and Personal spells, hence giving up another caster level. Full Channel Spell is the full attack version. Bonus feats would be limited to Fighter bonus feats.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2012, 12:15:07 AM by Ziegander »

Offline dman11235

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Re: Improved Eldritch Knight
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2012, 11:59:59 PM »
You know, I think there might be two classes here.  One focuses on the weapon, the other focuses on the spell buffs.

So the weapon gains the Kensai-esque ability, and then Channel Spell/Full Channel.

The other one gains the Improved Channel and acts a bit more like a War Weaver/Abjurant Champion mix.

Eh, it's just an idea at this point.  Too tired to really concentrate though.
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Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Improved Eldritch Knight
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2012, 07:17:36 AM »
I'll look at the Kensai gestalt closer in a bit.

As for the entry requirements, 8 ranks of Concentration would force it to 5th level and fits with the Skill Focus (Concentration). I used SF because I'm getting rid of Combat Casting in lieu of that modified feat.

I hadn't even thought about non-core classes or ACFs. My brain was in full fighter/wizard mode. I figured the most logical entry was Ftr 1/Wiz 4, or possibly Ftr 2/Wiz 3, but that last one doesn't give you much for the lost caster level (+3 HP and +1 Fort vs +1 Will).

Another thing is I could make it so you need proficiency in all martial weapons, or at least three of them, or something.
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Offline dman11235

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Re: Improved Eldritch Knight
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2012, 09:24:59 AM »
Yeah, I like the Concentration part of the requirements, I just noticed taht you can get in without taking a single level of a martial class.  I'm not sure if making it require all martial weapons would be good though, as it would eliminate possible combinations with martial classes that don't get all of them.  Unless that's fine with you, in which case, it would work well.  You can end up having another class for those without access to all martial weapons.

Although, it might actually be best to make this more specific, and have it target a specific class.  It would require a class feature from said class as a prereq, and advance aspects of it.  Not sure if that's an angle you want to explore though, so I guess the only other option is to leave it as-is and just have the class discourage any straight casters that aren't designed to be in melee combat.  More on that later, but you'll need to expand Channel Spell. and make sure the Duskblade doesn't say hi to you.
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Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Improved Eldritch Knight
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2012, 09:36:41 AM »
I don't want it to target specific classes. The EK was designed as a kludge to work with 3.x's crappy multiclassing system to be a catch-all gish class. I primarily am looking for a good chassis with a few things to flesh it out.
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Offline dman11235

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Re: Improved Eldritch Knight
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2012, 10:00:55 AM »
Yeah, and I'm just not sure that's going to end up as viable of a PrC.  Power-wise it might end up fine, but it might just be unworkable design, ironically because of the broken multi-class system.  You're smart though, and you usually have great ideas and classes, so you'll probably prove me wrong though.

So basically, your goal would be an Abjurant Champion, only not abjuration based?  Or rather, jsut take the EK and build around it......

And you know what?  I'm not sure anyone wants to tackle that multi-class system just yet.  I've explored it a bit, but the problem is quite a bit deeper than "other classes don't advance CL".  ToB and Incarnum are the only systems that actually work well with multiclassing (mundanes like the fighter and monk don't count, their system IS multiclassing).

Class is starting, so I'll take on some more of this later.
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Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Improved Eldritch Knight
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2012, 11:25:50 AM »
So basically, your goal would be an Abjurant Champion, only not abjuration based?  Or rather, jsut take the EK and build around it......
At this point, just take the EK and build around it. The Abjurant Champion is awesome because it's full casting and full BAB, but it's limited in that it's only five levels long.

Basically, I see the EK as a kludge to patch multiclassing a bit (similar to all of those multiclass feats from Complete Adventurer and Scoundrel). It's just that the EK is a pretty crappy class and I wanted to improve the chassis and add a few sword-mage type powers. If I get creative, I could probably write in a capstone too. I just don't want to go nuts with how awesome it is.

Sadly, I don't see any good way to salvage multiclassing in 3E without some serious rewriting to the point of making a new edition.
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Offline dman11235

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Re: Improved Eldritch Knight
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2012, 02:57:27 PM »
You know, this might not be a viable class then.  The flavor of the EK is just too generic to work for this.  Your class has much more specific flavor and actually works as a PrC....

Feel free to take from my suggestoins for abilities.  A good capstone for this (assuming the original starting point, in the OP) could be a 1/encounter get a free full attack when you cast a spell or something.  This would be in addition to the Channel Spell thing, although it might be powerful enough to exclude that.
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Offline RedWarlock

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Re: Improved Eldritch Knight
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2012, 03:56:12 PM »
Sadly, I don't see any good way to salvage multiclassing in 3E without some serious rewriting to the point of making a new edition.
Just curious, what do you define as good multiclassing? What do you think are the failings of D&D's multiclassing system? (more than 'they aren't productive', like what goals are they missing?)
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Offline dman11235

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Re: Improved Eldritch Knight
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2012, 06:28:38 PM »
Well, unless you ignore the multi-class xp penalty, that's one major problem.  The way class in this game are presented, they are more of building blocks than whole characters.  They should be able to stand on their own, but also be able to combine.  The multi-class xp penalty ignores that, and says "identify as a class!", which is bad.  Then you have the class-advanced abilities, the most prominent being spellcasting.  I really really really really hate casting, and one of the biggest reasons is this multi-classing problem (another big reason is how incredibly hard/impossible it is to balance /day abilities).  If you decide to multi-class as a caster, you completely screw yourself over, and end up not level-appropriate with power.  Not that casters advance smoothly in power anyways, but still.  So this heavily discourages taking any class or PrC that loses caster levels, because not only do you get higher level spells slower, but you risk not even getting 9th level spells in the end.  And this sort of thing does not translate horizontally well power wise.

Good multiclassing would be something like ToB, and to a lesser extent Incarnum.  BOth systems have the primary ability that measures power (initiator level for ToB and essentia for INcarnum) advance even without the system's classes, but still reward you for taking the "correct" classes for the system.  This allows for good multiclassing and PrCs, letting you combine classes without losing out on the vertical power, and the versatility trade off being the only compromise.  You remain level-relevant at all levels, and combine the mechanics of two or more classes, while not becoming too powerful.

It should be possible to do it without a new edition, but maybe it would end up being 3.5.5 or something.  There's a few things that definitely need to change completely: multiclass penalties, the PrC mindset of being better than the base classes, and the /day abilities.  The /day abilities don't really matter directly to multi-classing, but their effects show up in the problems more readily (the most prominent opponents to multiclassing?  magic and psionics).

So what needs to change: systems need to have their primary source of vertical power be achievable without the classes contributing to it.  Whether this be caster level, base attack bonus, unarmed damage, whatever.  This can still allow mundanes like the Fighters to exist, but the mundane options need to be tooled a bit so that the powers stack to keep up with magic or whatever, or the magic needs to be brought down to the mundane's level, or a combination.  Keeping in mind the fact that magic users have magic on top of mundane options, so that's something else that's needing a look at.
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Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Improved Eldritch Knight
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2012, 09:33:44 PM »
Sadly, I don't see any good way to salvage multiclassing in 3E without some serious rewriting to the point of making a new edition.
Just curious, what do you define as good multiclassing? What do you think are the failings of D&D's multiclassing system? (more than 'they aren't productive', like what goals are they missing?)
There are a lot of issues with D&D's system in 3E. In short, you can see this in that pretty much no caster multiclasses (excluding PrCs) and pretty much every mundane character multiclasses. This is because casting is awesome, so you don't want to give that up, but all mundane characters have is BAB, skill points, and class features. Those all stack. So you dumpster dive looking for the best features to stack while keeping your BAB or Sneak Attack or whatever as high as possible.

Balance is another issue. Given that casters are so awesome, it's hard to make a balanced system with that issue looming over head. Since wizards are awesome and fighters are not, you're stuck making a gish either worse than a wizard (so why be one?) or as good as a wizard (in which case, why would you not be one?). Sure, there are flavor reasons to play a gish, but that's really it. So, this is just one more issue.

There's no easy way to fix this since the stacking aspect of 3E's Hit Dice are built right into the base of the system. So, you get kludges like dual-progression classes (Mystic Theruge, Eldritch Knight, and Arcane Trickster from core), Multiclassing feats (from Complete Adventurer and Scoundrel), and ACFs (like the Battle Sorcerer). There's also the Initiator Level mechanic from ToB, but that has some problems. It's nice in that it basically has a Mystic Theruge-like progression built right in, but it has problems in that it seriously matters what order you take your classes in. From an optimization standpoint, that can be fun. For a DM trying to make an NPC real quick or other forms of quick char-gen, it's a pain in the ass.

I haven't used Incarnum before, so I can't comment on it. I know Frank recently said at the Den that if 4E had used it instead of ToB as a basis for their system, multiclassing would have worked nicely. Perhaps I should look into it.



As for what I'd like in a good system, I'd have to give that some more thought. I'll be honest that I'm so entrenched in a 3E way of thinking about things that I have a hard time thinking out of the box. 2E had an interesting system that sounds cute in principle, but in practice, it depended on what you picked. It was a pseudo gestalt where you'd pick two (or three) classes and track your level in each of them, but you had to split your XP between each class, so you advanced more slowly. I say pseudo gestalt because you averaged your HP rather than picking the better of the two. In all other ways, you picked the best of each class given each of their levels. You have to remember though, that back in 2E, each class had a different XP progression and that it took double the XP to level each level for a while. So, in practice, if the group was mostly level 4, you'd likely be level 3/3. So this system only works if having two classes at level X-1 is the same as having one at X.

One way to do it might be to simply build in mandatory multiclassing right into the system. You're forced to pick a main class and a sub class, and you get abilities from your sub class (similar to Final Fantasy Tactics). Now, if you reject this outright because there's no straight classing then, another option might be to allow you to pick the same class as your primary and sub, but I'm not sure how it would work out. I've never put any real work into a system like this, so I don't know.

Another option is to go classless. If you want to "fake" classes, you could create a bunch of "classes" which would just be groupings of abilities for quick char-gen and reference, but the idea would be that as you gain levels, you simply pick level-appropirate abilities and call it a day. A serious downside to this approach is balancing that many combinations would be a nightmare.
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Offline dman11235

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Re: Improved Eldritch Knight
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2012, 10:01:15 PM »
Incarnum has your character level provide the power capacity, but class provide the power filler.  It's not perfect (not everyone gets essentia, and it takes crazy feats to get it up to adequate levels), but it works as well or better than ToB's initiator level.  There's soulmelds that work off of your meldshaper level, so those don't work well, but mostly it works off of character level.

On ToB: This is true, but you can't deny that the system works amazingly well for what it does.  Hey!  Multiclassed "casters" that actually work well?  Yes please!  Just don't try and make it a quick character.  I don't think that works for any character that has options, except maybe Incarnum.  With that one, the hardest part is figuring which ones you want, as there's no levels to make sure you need to qualify for.

Quote
A serious downside to this approach is balancing that many combinations would be a nightmare.
not to mention creating them all.  But I do like the classes system, just not for this game.  Call it nostalgia or whatever.

On your primary/secondary class: you could have each class have a primary and secondary track.  Straight classes would take both at the same time, and multiclass would take one of each, and designate which one's which.  no switching every other level or anything weird like that.  This does have a different problem that's really obvious, and I'm not sure why you didn't bring it up: you're limited to two classes.  This removes sooooo much customizability from the game, and I'm not talking about the single classed characters.

One system type that works really, really well for multiclassing is a seed system, like I used in the Avatar project, and will use again in my next project.  Since you don't have levels of abilities to choose from (everything's a level 1 ability, but you can augment it in some way) you don't have to worry about getting new spell levels or anything.  The power comes from an augmentable "seed user level", which can be character level, class level, skill check, or even something else.  Incarnum falls into this category as well, using the character level and class level combined, for two different aspects of it.
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Offline RedWarlock

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Re: Improved Eldritch Knight
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2012, 10:50:25 PM »
I never cared for dual-classing style multiclassing, because it precludes the idea that multiclassing could represent character growth and change in goals. The 5th level rogue who decides he wants to learn some magic. I don't commonly plan my characters' whole lives from before first level, their class-level choices tend to grow organically from the situation at hand. I might aim at certain concepts, but then have that concept as something the young character has as a goal, like a teenager in highschool picking a career, and then changing goals after freshman year of college.
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Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Improved Eldritch Knight
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2012, 07:45:24 AM »
That is true. One thing I like about 3E's stacking HD model for multiclassing is that you can change your mind on the fly... for better or for worse (I had a player notorious for spontaneously multiclassing and making her characters worse). My two biggest complaints with 3E's model is:

1) You can't multiclass at 1st level without using a feat or ACF to fake it, and

2) As I mentioned earlier, some things stack and some don't, so casters never multiclass and mundane classes almost always do.

To avoid the issues of both the dual-classed and 3E approach, I like the pseudo-classless idea I proposed, but I think it would be impractical to balance.


Still, it's getting far enough off topic for the EK fix. Given that I've been working on a set of house-rules to largely keep the game as-is, but add more options for different character archetypes, for this fix, I'm really looking at a patch to make a gish more possible. I'm hoping my revised Battle Caster feat (linked in the OP) and a single level martial dip will be enough to make someone feel like a gish by 2nd level, and I'm hoping this class will help keep the PC advancing satisfactorily.


I still need to think up a capstone. I don't think it's required for what I'm doing, but Dman is right that it'd be nice.
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Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Improved Eldritch Knight
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2012, 08:25:49 AM »
Bit of a necro here, but I wanted to think of a capstone. I'm not sure this is good enough for a 15th level character, but what are your thoughts?

Arcane Fighting (Ex):
At 10th level, when the Eldritch Knight makes a basic melee attack as a standard action or takes the full attack action with a melee weapon, he may cast an arcane spell as a swift action. The spell must have a casting time of one standard action or less. The spell's level (modified by metamagic feats, if any) must be at least four levels lower than the highest level spell he could cast. The spell uses a spell slot of its normal level.
   For example, if the Eldritch Knight is capable of casting 7th level spells, he could cast a 3rd level or lower spell as a swift action when he makes a melee attack as described above.


So, is the four-level limit too much? I'm sure there are a crap-ton of abuses there I'm just not thinking about right now.
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