Author Topic: archer help  (Read 12636 times)

Offline kinaka

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archer help
« on: April 07, 2012, 04:50:05 PM »
I am building an archer for a mid-level campaign. I have read the archer handbook and need some help. the handbook refers to volley archers on several occasions but I haven't been able to find how to make one or exactly what that means. Any help would be appreciated
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Offline ChupacabraJohn

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Re: archer help
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2012, 05:04:31 PM »
A volley archer shoots as many arrows as he can in a round. At low levels this is done with rapid shot, then manyshot at 6th, then greater manyshot (from EPH). The Splitting enhancement on a bow is a must. Then you get a mighty composite bow to match your str bonus and shoot all the arrows at whoever you want to die.
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Offline StreamOfTheSky

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Re: archer help
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2012, 06:02:03 PM »
A volley archer does not use manyshot.  Only scouts do, really.  And I don't think it's worth it even for them.

Volley Archers tend to be martials (full BAB classes, not casters or rogue types).  They rely on increasing damage per arrow and sheer rate of fire.  They tend to operate well at any range, as opposed to rogue or scout archers, who must be up close.   Enhanced long range detection abilities may fall under their purview; stealth is less necessary due to the distances they can effectively operate from.

3.5 unfortunately has VERY LITTLE support for archers, espcially volley archers.  Other than the basic composite bow + PBS/Precise/Rapid Shot combo, the main cornerstones are the Woodland Archer feat and 4 levels of Cragtop Archer prestige class (search for it; it's available for free on wizard's site) -- the 5th and final level is crap.   Force and or Splitting enhancements are of course handy additions to your bow, though the latter one is much more useful to rogues and scouts.  Flying so enemies can't reach you also helps, and your range means you can stay quite far from the ground.

If you can use 3.0 stuff, check out Deepwood Sniper and Peerless Archer, and possibly the 3.0 version of Order of the Bow Initiate.

Offline weenog

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Re: archer help
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2012, 06:18:10 PM »
Does it need to be a traditional archer, or is a shooter good enough?  And what's your budget like?  If you can afford the weapon to make it work, and you're willing to use a crossbow instead of a bow, this suggestion by JaronK for emulating Team Fortress 2's Heavy Weapons Guy might help you out.

Quote from: JaronK
How about Feat Rogue 2/Fighter 2/Unarmed Swordsage 1/Warblade 1/Crusader X?  Use an Aptitude Splitting Great Crossbow along with Lightning Mace, Improved Critical (Heavy Crossbow), Hand Crossbow Mastery, Roundabout Kick and Rapid Shot to get extra attacks and free action reloading with your crossbow?  You get two shots per normal shot, two extra shots per critical threat, two extra shots per critical confirmation, and can thus fire TONS of shots at the enemy.  Plus you can self heal when you must, and can slug it out with your bare hands when you need.  You can also easily make saves with the right maneuvers.  Blood in the Water is the best stance to use, allowing you to power up the more you shoot (just grin a lot!).

I've been using a modified version in a level 6 game (abusing the crap out of a wealth exploit) and it's ridiculous.  I gave up trying to count my attacks when I passed 40 bolts in a standard action.  Punching through damage reduction is no problem, with an accumulating +1 hit and damage for every critical you can just overwhelm it with brute force after a couple rounds (or one very good one).
"Whoops, forgot to roll my fire and holy damage."
"I doubt she's going to make a DC 111 Fort save, anyway."

Offline Dawnmor

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Re: archer help
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2012, 09:50:59 PM »
I suggest you look up HANKS BOW on google or something.  That will help you out tremendously.

Or search for Energy bow.

Offline Halinn

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Re: archer help
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2012, 09:58:42 PM »
I suggest you look up HANKS BOW on google or something.  That will help you out tremendously.

Or search for Energy bow.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a

Offline Nanshork

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Re: archer help
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2012, 12:16:38 AM »
As long as you are starting at level six or higher, The Soulbow in this thread is another option for a good volley archer.

Offline nijineko

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Re: archer help
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2012, 12:29:31 AM »
As long as you are starting at level six or higher, The Soulbow in this thread is another option for a good volley archer.

why are you using that soulbow when this official 3.5 one is so much better?

Offline Talore

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Re: archer help
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2012, 12:31:01 AM »
Does it need to be a traditional archer, or is a shooter good enough?  And what's your budget like?  If you can afford the weapon to make it work, and you're willing to use a crossbow instead of a bow, this suggestion by JaronK for emulating Team Fortress 2's Heavy Weapons Guy might help you out.

Quote from: JaronK
How about Feat Rogue 2/Fighter 2/Unarmed Swordsage 1/Warblade 1/Crusader X?  Use an Aptitude Splitting Great Crossbow along with Lightning Mace, Improved Critical (Heavy Crossbow), Hand Crossbow Mastery, Roundabout Kick and Rapid Shot to get extra attacks and free action reloading with your crossbow?  You get two shots per normal shot, two extra shots per critical threat, two extra shots per critical confirmation, and can thus fire TONS of shots at the enemy.  Plus you can self heal when you must, and can slug it out with your bare hands when you need.  You can also easily make saves with the right maneuvers.  Blood in the Water is the best stance to use, allowing you to power up the more you shoot (just grin a lot!).

I've been using a modified version in a level 6 game (abusing the crap out of a wealth exploit) and it's ridiculous.  I gave up trying to count my attacks when I passed 40 bolts in a standard action.  Punching through damage reduction is no problem, with an accumulating +1 hit and damage for every critical you can just overwhelm it with brute force after a couple rounds (or one very good one).
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Offline Nanshork

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Re: archer help
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2012, 12:36:00 AM »
As long as you are starting at level six or higher, The Soulbow in this thread is another option for a good volley archer.

why are you using that soulbow when this official 3.5 one is so much better?

Because while Athas.org was given permission by WoTC, I don't see it any more official than Dragon magazine and thus don't use it.

Offline weenog

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Re: archer help
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2012, 01:42:12 AM »
Does it need to be a traditional archer, or is a shooter good enough?  And what's your budget like?  If you can afford the weapon to make it work, and you're willing to use a crossbow instead of a bow, this suggestion by JaronK for emulating Team Fortress 2's Heavy Weapons Guy might help you out.

Quote from: JaronK
How about Feat Rogue 2/Fighter 2/Unarmed Swordsage 1/Warblade 1/Crusader X?  Use an Aptitude Splitting Great Crossbow along with Lightning Mace, Improved Critical (Heavy Crossbow), Hand Crossbow Mastery, Roundabout Kick and Rapid Shot to get extra attacks and free action reloading with your crossbow?  You get two shots per normal shot, two extra shots per critical threat, two extra shots per critical confirmation, and can thus fire TONS of shots at the enemy.  Plus you can self heal when you must, and can slug it out with your bare hands when you need.  You can also easily make saves with the right maneuvers.  Blood in the Water is the best stance to use, allowing you to power up the more you shoot (just grin a lot!).

I've been using a modified version in a level 6 game (abusing the crap out of a wealth exploit) and it's ridiculous.  I gave up trying to count my attacks when I passed 40 bolts in a standard action.  Punching through damage reduction is no problem, with an accumulating +1 hit and damage for every critical you can just overwhelm it with brute force after a couple rounds (or one very good one).
Mother of god. Please post a link to the original post

I asked about a Heavy in the simple concept/build thread at BG.
"Whoops, forgot to roll my fire and holy damage."
"I doubt she's going to make a DC 111 Fort save, anyway."

Offline kinaka

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Re: archer help
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2012, 11:14:26 AM »
I was thinking of maybe going the arcane archer route to get free enhancements on all my arrows. How exactly does the crossbow thing work though and what books are those classes from? I'm still pretty new at this
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Offline snakeman830

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Re: archer help
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2012, 11:18:06 AM »
Feat Rogue is on the SRD. Basically, you lose sneak attack and gain Fighter bonus feat progressions.

Swordsage, Warblade, and Crusader are all base classes from Tome of Battle.

Arcane Archer is very much not worth it, as you only get enhancement bonuses and not anything that you actually want with a high entry cost.  The best Arcane Archers only have 2 levels in the PrC.
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Offline weenog

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Re: archer help
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2012, 04:40:44 PM »
I was thinking of maybe going the arcane archer route to get free enhancements on all my arrows. How exactly does the crossbow thing work though and what books are those classes from? I'm still pretty new at this

"Aptitude" is a weapon special ability from Tome of Battle.  The price is a +1 equivalent (that is, a +1 Aptitude weapon costs the same as a +2 weapon, and if you wanted to add more stuff it would be priced as if you were bringing it up to +3 or higher).  What Aptitude does is it allows you to use any weapon-specific feats with the weapon, even if the weapon is the wrong type.

For example, a great crossbow requires a full-round action to reload, but because Hand Crossbow Focus lets you reload hand crossbows as a free action, a character with Hand Crossbow Focus and an Aptitude great crossbow can load the great crossbow as a free action, enabling full attacks and (if applicable) making extra attacks from other sources.

Lightning Mace lets you make a free extra attack any time you roll a critical threat, if you have a light mace in each hand.  Because it says a light mace in each hand (instead of saying two light maces) you could make the argument that a two-handed Aptitude weapon is occupying each hand (assuming you only have two hands) and can benefit from this feat.

Roundabout Kick enables you to make a free extra unarmed strike attack against the same opponent, whenever you confirm a critical hit with an unarmed strike.  Again, weapon-specific feat, so Aptitude effectively re-writes the feat to say "this weapon" instead of "unarmed strike".

The Great Crossbow is an exotic ranged weapon in Races of Stone.  It does respectable base damage (2d8), though this would be garbage with the required full-round load time, which Hand Crossbow Focus obviates.  The range increment is 120 feet, not bad.  The main selling point, and what makes it a good idea for this build, is it crits 18-20/x2, like a scimitar or a falchion.  If you have the Improved Critical feat (or throw money at it to make it Keen like I did for my low level, filthy rich version), that improves to 15-20/x2, and you're threatening critical on 6 out of 20 possible natural attack rolls, IOW 30% of attacks assuming your attack bonus is high enough to hit on a natural 15.

If you're using the Splitting weapon special ability, each bolt fired becomes two identical bolts that each use their own attack rolls, leaving you with a (.7*.7)= 49% chance of not threatening at least one critical with every shot.  That's a coin flip, very slightly weighted in your favor.  With each critical threat creating a free extra shot that splits into two, and each confirmed critical creating another free extra shot that splits into two (granted, this is restricted to the original victim, not a new target), and all of these free extra attacks carrying the possibility of threatening/confirming critical and generating even more free extra attacks, you can put out a very large amount of shots with a little luck.

Blood in the Water stance gives you a self-stacking +1 to attack and damage rolls every time you confirm a critical, so your shots get more powerful and more accurate the more lucky shots you make.  It's very possible to find yourself in a situation where you've got half a dozen extra attacks going nowhere, because you just killed the whole encounter as a standard action and have run out of targets.



Two other items I should note are really helping me with mine: a Quiver of Lies and a Flesh Ring of Scorn, both found in Book of Vile Darkness.  The Quiver of Lies conjures up an arrow or bolt in your hand (whichever is appropriate to the weapon you use) any time you tell a lie, as a free action.  This saves you from having to carry a huge amount of bolts, or wasting actions drawing a new bolt case when you deplete a case of 10.  The Flesh Ring of Scorn allows you to automatically confirm critical threats against non-outsiders, but it only works if it's pierced into the flesh of an evil outsider.  My minigunner just wears it as a septum piercing and is using the Use Magic Device skill to fool it about his race and alignment, and while he's destroying everything in front of him he's yelling "I am a banana!" in Orc the whole time, convincing surviving witnesses that he's dangerously insane.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 04:56:06 PM by weenog »
"Whoops, forgot to roll my fire and holy damage."
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Offline Halinn

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Re: archer help
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2012, 05:20:48 PM »
I seem to remember a build using that combination of feats to gain infinite attacks, because each attack generates more than one attack on average. Only stopped if a large string of misses happens early on in the process (although that bit was subject to intense debate)

Offline weenog

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Re: archer help
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2012, 05:22:57 PM »
I seem to remember a build using that combination of feats to gain infinite attacks, because each attack generates more than one attack on average. Only stopped if a large string of misses happens early on in the process (although that bit was subject to intense debate)

Sounds very vaguely familiar.  Was that an attempt at an Avalanche of Blades exploit?
"Whoops, forgot to roll my fire and holy damage."
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Offline Halinn

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Re: archer help
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2012, 05:52:10 PM »
It's a couple of years ago, so my memory is a bit fuzzy. I think it was on 339.

Offline kinaka

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Re: archer help
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2012, 04:32:19 PM »
I'm really starting to like the crossbow idea but not sure if my Dm would go for that. :( maybe if I just gor for one or the other he would allow it instead of free attacks on a threat and a comfiration
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Offline weenog

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Re: archer help
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2012, 07:09:43 PM »
I'm really starting to like the crossbow idea but not sure if my Dm would go for that. :( maybe if I just gor for one or the other he would allow it instead of free attacks on a threat and a comfiration

I would go for Lightning Mace (extra attack on threat) instead of Roundabout Kick  (extra attack on confirmed critical) then.  The prerequisites for LM are steeper, but an extra attack that can go to anybody is far better than an extra attack that has to go to the same person, who might already be dead.  Also, your chances of actually landing it are slightly higher if you just need to make the initial threat roll instead of that plus successfully confirming (even if your attack bonus is high enough to auto-hit, you still miss no matter what on a natural 1).

You might also try just pointing out to your DM that some very simple stuff can beat it.  Total cover from a wall, a tower shield, a big tree or any number of other things makes things unavailable as targets (I had one nimble flier recently dick around with me by smacking me with a flyby attack and then retreating to the roof of where I was, using the roof to block my attacks).  Wind wall is a low-level spell that absolutely stops normal projectiles, even if a million of them are incoming.

It also probably wouldn't hurt to check what the rest of your group is doing, and see how they feel about it.  In my group it's working because the other two characters are mainly about battlefield control, buffs, debuffs, and utilty effects.  All I really do is damage output, but I do a lot of it, and I can do it to pesky distant and/or flying enemies.  They don't have to worry about killing things, and they can skip some of the useful but boring buffs like fly, and there's no jealousy issues because there are plenty of things they can do that I can't.  Everyone gets their chance to be a rockstar.  Being scarily good at something doesn't necessarily create group tension or break the game, as long as what you're good at isn't stepping on another player's toes, and can't just win everything on its own with nobody else's help.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 07:34:06 PM by weenog »
"Whoops, forgot to roll my fire and holy damage."
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Offline Cagemarrow

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Re: archer help
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2012, 06:06:07 AM »
I'm liking the crossbow machine gunner as well, but am trying to develop it for an E6 game. I've got lots of questions that I'm trying to work my way through and would love to hear other people's thoughts on it.

Would Exoticist Hit and Run Fighter work better than normal for the build? What would you choose for the other weapon proficiencies? I'd assume you'd want at least one two handed weapon that you could also throw aptitude on as well so you could do the same basic trick with melee or ranged. Would it be better to stick with fighter so he could take the capstone to get improved critical or does the multi-classing make it work a lot better? I can see it providing some additional versatility. Could Martial Monk be used instead of swordsage to get improved crit and unarmed strike instead? Could you Flurry with the crossbow using the same logic as the roundhouse kick? Does Hand Crossbow focus and weapon focus stack since they are two separate sources? Or does HCF supersede it?