Author Topic: Homebrew Samurai Attempt  (Read 8751 times)

Offline Braininthejar

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Homebrew Samurai Attempt
« on: April 07, 2012, 07:02:15 PM »
(NOTE: Version 1.0 reviewed already. Please wait with further comments until I have updeted to version 1.1)


Samurai
Alignment: any lawful
Attack bonus: full
HD = D10
Saves: strong fortitude and will
Skill points per level: 4
Skills: balance, concentration, craft, diplomacy, intimidate, iaijutsu focus, knowledge (nobility / history / religion / local), profession, ride, sense motive, (heal home-ruled as profession-medic)

Weapons and armour: proficient with all simple and martial weapons but no shields. Also gains katana exotic weapon proficiency

Weapon style: At 2nd level, a samurai gets to choose one of the three fighting styles. The chosen style will grant him new benefits as he levels up. (at 6th, 11th and 16th level)

Kiai strike: At 3rd level a samurai gains a kiai strike ability usable up to once per class level per day. A samurai makes a battlecry as a swift action, focusing his spirit into his next attack. One attack performed in that turn (chosen by the samurai before rolling to hit) benefits from bonus damage equal to the samurai’s charisma bonus, exactly as if he had taken that much to hit penalty on a power attack. A Kia strike may be combined with a regular power attack to gain a bigger power attack bonus than normally allowed. A Kiai strike can be performed with any close combat weapon except for flails, chains, whips, and cavalry lance ( those rely on either inertia or the steed, so the samurai cannot control the power precisely enough) A samurai cannot perform a kiai strike when silenced or unable to breathe, unless he is a creature type that does not normally speak/breathe.

Staredown: At 5th level a samurai’s iron discipline hardens his spirit as much as his body. He gains a +4 class bonus on intimidate checks and can demoralize the opponent as per the rules in PHB.

Cutting the spirit: At level 7, a samurai’s kiai strikes can hurt incorporeal creatures, ignoring the normal miss chance

Honor of the samurai At level 8, a samurai gains honor-bound as a bonus feat ( +2 circumstance bonus on saves if failing the save would result in violation of honor, a vow or a sworn duty )

Mass staredown: At level 10 a samurai can use his staredown ability on all enemies within 30 feet with a single standard action.

Cutting with the soul: At level 12 a samurai kiai strikes can score normal critical hits against corporeal undead, constructs, plants and non-swarm vermin

Duty stronger than pain At level 13 a samurai gains diehard as a bonus feat

Improved staredown: At level 15 a samurai can use his mass staredown as a move action.

Moment of perfection: At level 17 a samurai’s kiai strikes become vorpal, as long as they are dealt with a slashing weapon.

Duty stronger than death at level 19 the samurai's honor-bound bonus increases to +4

Frightful presence: At level the samurai can send lesser enemies fleeing with just his reputation. He gains a frightful presence which he can trigger at will (DC =20+charisma modifier, enemies of 1-4 HD panicked for 4D6 rounds, enemies  over 4 HD but below the samurai level shaken for 4D6 rounds). A successful save makes a creature immune for 24 hours.

SAMURAI WEAPON STYLES

Daisho style: a samurai masters the style of using a daisho – a katana and wakizashi set. He gains two weapon fighting for those two weapons only, but regardless of meeting requirements.

On level 6 he can put his rigorous training of kata to use, performing a flurry with his dual-wielded weapons as part of a full attack (He takes a -2 penalty on all attacks but gets an extra attack at the highest bonus with each hand)
On level 11 he gets improved two weapon fighting, for katana and wakizashi only but regardless of normal requirements
On level 16 it is upgraded to greater two weapon fighting.

Single blade style: With this style, the most straightforward one, a samurai wields a single weapon, usually two-handed. He gets a weapon specialisation feat in a katana, regardless of normal requirements. If he has a weapon focus in another close combat weapon, he can choose to apply the ability to it instead.

On level 6 a samurai does power attack damage with his chosen weapon as if he took a to hit a penalty of 2 more points
On level 11 a samurai gains improved specialisation with his chosen weapon
On level 16 the critical multiplier of the samurai’s chosen weapon increases by one. the ability works as normal with magic effects that influence the critical chance

Iaijutsu style: With a iaijutsu style, a samurai masters an art of felling his opponents with a single strike, pulling out the blade and striking down the foe in one fluent move. He gets quick draw and improved initiative feats for free, as well as finesse with both daisho weapons (even though the katana is too large to normally qualify for finesse)

On level 6 a samurai has improved his art of killing with a single stroke. His critical threat with a katana or wakizashi is automatically confirmed.
On level 11 a samurai can expend one daily kiai use to use a iaijutsu attack on an opponent that is not flat-footed. He can do it once per close combat (a combat is considered over when he spends one round not threatened by any enemy.) The attack does not get a kiai bonus damage nor does it require shouting but does count as a kiai strike for the purpose of other abilities. Also, this use of kiai does not take a swift action and so can be used for an attack of opportunity.
On level 16, whenever a samurai connects with a iaijutsu strike, he can make an improved staredown attempt as a free action, gaining an extra +4 circumstance bonus if he managed to take down his target.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2012, 08:35:16 AM by Braininthejar »

Offline Braininthejar

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Re: Homebrew Samurai Attempt
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2012, 07:09:20 PM »
MY INITIAL COMMENTS:

Saves: Eastern stories are all about heroic willpower.

Skills: 2 per level is ridiculous for anyone. The most notable addition is balance - samurai stories involve sea battles too

Styles: I intended single weapon style to be weaker as two-handed weapon is stronger by nature. The finesse is for people who want to try some weird combinations. I kept the samurai progression of 2WF but added a flurry in the middle, which I think makes it better than ranger progression (correct me if I am wrong)

Kiai. Now adds less but this less can be multiplied. Also usable more often

Honor-bound is from Dragonlance campaign setting.

Kiai strike additional features are limited to kiai strikes obviously, but you are going to use kiai on the enemies that count, won't you.

All in all, he gets a lot of different stuff - he is still MAD though. ( on the flipside, he is MAD for charisma so he might also do some social interaction, unlike the fighter)

Clarifications:
Daisho style is compatible with oversized two weapon fighting, should you feel like it. Also, multiarmed creatures can apply flurry to more arms, as long as they have an appropriate multiweapon feat from a different source and wield daisho weapons in all hands concerned.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2012, 07:27:56 PM by Braininthejar »

Offline Garryl

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Re: Homebrew Samurai Attempt
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2012, 08:16:44 PM »
I see dead levels at 1st level (lolwut?), 4th, 9th, 14th, and 18th. 7, 8, 12, 13, 17, and 19 aren't too hot either.

Kiai strike: At 3rd level a samurai gains a kiai strike ability usable up to once per class level per day. A samurai makes a battlecry as a swift action, focusing his spirit into his next attack. One attack performed in that turn (chosen by the samurai before rolling to hit) benefits from bonus damage equal to the samurai’s charisma bonus, exactly as if he had taken that much to hit penalty on a power attack. A Kia strike may be combined with a regular power attack to gain a bigger power attack bonus than normally allowed. A Kiai strike can be performed with any close combat weapon except for flails, chains, whips, and cavalry lance ( those rely on either inertia or the steed, so the samurai cannot control the power precisely enough) A samurai cannot perform a kiai strike when silenced or unable to breathe, unless he is a creature type that does not normally speak/breathe.
Which is it? Is it bonus damage equal to Cha, or bonus damage as if taking a penalty on attack rolls equal to Cha?
By "close combat weapons", do you mean all melee weapons? Are you trying to exclude reach weapons or just ranged weapons?

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Staredown: At 5th level a samurai’s iron discipline hardens his spirit as much as his body. He gains a +4 class bonus on intimidate checks and can demoralize the opponent as per the rules in PHB.
How is the ability to demoralize as per the rules in the PHB different from the ability to demoralize as per the rules in the PHB that the Samurai can already use?
Why is the bonus typed? Class bonuses do not exist in any other context, so why create that new type now?

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Cutting the spirit: At level 7, a samurai’s kiai strikes can hurt incorporeal creatures, ignoring the normal miss chance

Honor of the samurai At level 8, a samurai gains honor-bound as a bonus feat ( +2 circumstance bonus on saves if failing the save would result in violation of honor, a vow or a sworn duty )
Kinda flavorful, I guess. Still lacking a bit in the meat department, unless honor-bound is interpreted to give the bonus on just about any save. Cutting the Spirit can still be replaced by a Truedeath Crystal or the Ghost Touch property, and on more than just one attack per round.

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Mass staredown: At level 10 a samurai can use his staredown ability on all enemies within 30 feet with a single standard action.
Ah, everyone's favorite mass intimidation ability (well, except for Never Outnumbered, which came online 5 levels earlier, can use better actions if your normal demoralize can, and is a skill trick, although that only has a 10 foot range and is usable only 1/encounter).

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Cutting with the soul: At level 12 a samurai kiai strikes can score normal critical hits against corporeal undead, constructs, plants and non-swarm vermin
Cool, but you don't have anything that works with critical hits. Well, there's one thing in the Iajutsu style, but that one is barely anything. There's another small threat range increase in Single Blade style, but again, it's not much.

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Duty stronger than pain At level 13 a samurai gains diehard as a bonus feat
Too little too late. At level 13, Diehard is flavorful, but the odds of getting to benefit from it are dreadfully low.

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Improved staredown: At level 15 a samurai can use his mass staredown as a move action.
Your normal demoralization attempts are still standard actions, just FYI. Well, unless you bought some Fearsome armor, which you could have afforded since about level 6.

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Moment of perfection: At level 17 a samurai’s kiai strikes become vorpal, as long as they are dealt with a slashing weapon.

Duty stronger than death at level 19 the samurai's honor-bound bonus increases to +4

Frightful presence: At level the samurai can send lesser enemies fleeing with just his reputation. He gains a frightful presence which he can trigger at will (DC =20+charisma modifier, enemies of 1-4 HD panicked for 4D6 rounds, enemies  over 4 HD but below the samurai level shaken for 4D6 rounds). A successful save makes a creature immune for 24 hours.
I assume this is supposed to come at 20th level, and not level "the"?

Does this still occur as a result of the normal Frightful Presence triggers (dramatic actions such as charging, attacking, or snarling), or what? The line about triggering it at will is confusing me.

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SAMURAI WEAPON STYLES

Daisho style: a samurai masters the style of using a daisho – a katana and wakizashi set. He gains two weapon fighting for those two weapons only, but regardless of meeting requirements.

On level 6 he can put his rigorous training of kata to use, performing a flurry with his dual-wielded weapons as part of a full attack (He takes a -2 penalty on all attacks but gets an extra attack at the highest bonus with each hand)
On level 11 he gets improved two weapon fighting, for katana and wakizashi only but regardless of normal requirements
On level 16 it is upgraded to greater two weapon fighting.
You could still normally have taken those Imp. and Greater TWF feats at levels 6 and 11, respectively. I mean, I know you're sort of getting the extra attack anyways through flurry, but you'll still want to have Imp. and Greater TWF for yet more attacks when you can.

The TWF style still isn't supported by the mechanics of this class. Other than the free feats and the flurry attacks, you don't have anything for TWF to build on. Even with them, you're not doing much better than just using a two-handed weapon normally.

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Single blade style: With this style, the most straightforward one, a samurai wields a single weapon, usually two-handed. He gets a weapon specialisation feat in a katana, regardless of normal requirements. If he has a weapon focus in another close combat weapon, he can choose to apply the ability to it instead.

On level 6 a samurai does power attack damage with his chosen weapon as if he took a to hit a penalty of 2 more points
On level 11 a samurai gains improved specialisation with his chosen weapon
On level 16 the critical multiplier of the samurai’s chosen weapon increases by one. the ability works as normal with magic effects that influence the critical chance
For the level 6 ability, what if the Samurai doesn't have Power Attack? What if he does, but has already taken the normal maximum penalty?
Do you mean the Greater Weapon Specialization feat for the level 11 ability?

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Iaijutsu style: With a iaijutsu style, a samurai masters an art of felling his opponents with a single strike, pulling out the blade and striking down the foe in one fluent move. He gets quick draw and improved initiative feats for free, as well as finesse with both daisho weapons (even though the katana is too large to normally qualify for finesse)

On level 6 a samurai has improved his art of killing with a single stroke. His critical threat with a katana or wakizashi is automatically confirmed.
On level 11 a samurai can expend one daily kiai use to use a iaijutsu attack on an opponent that is not flat-footed. He can do it once per close combat (a combat is considered over when he spends one round not threatened by any enemy.) The attack does not get a kiai bonus damage nor does it require shouting but does count as a kiai strike for the purpose of other abilities. Also, this use of kiai does not take a swift action and so can be used for an attack of opportunity.
On level 16, whenever a samurai connects with a iaijutsu strike, he can make an improved staredown attempt as a free action, gaining an extra +4 circumstance bonus if he managed to take down his target.
The feat is called Weapon Finesse, not Finesse.
Technically, there's no such thing as an "Improved Staredown attempt". Improved Staredown only modifies an existing ability (Mass Staredown), it doesn't do anything on its own.

Offline ImperatorK

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Re: Homebrew Samurai Attempt
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2012, 08:29:17 PM »
Magic is for weaklings.

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Offline dman11235

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Re: Homebrew Samurai Attempt
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2012, 11:43:54 PM »
Is this a joke class?

Because it reads like a joke class.

It seriously...I just....wow....

There's....just so much wrong with this class that it may just be WORSE than the CW Samurai.  That's about the hardest thing to do when homebrewing, that's why I'm sure it has to be a joke.

Okay, I'm going to cover things that garryl didn't.  One: read the Guide to Homebrewing, linked in the post templates wanted thread or find it in this forum (I'll get around to a true compendium of stuff soon, I swear, then my sig's handy haversack will be complete).  Two: alignment restrictions will never be acceptable on a base class.  It's bad design.  It indicates specialization, which is reserved for PrCs.  Three: this class already exists.  It's called the Fighter.  When a primary class feature is feats, the class is not going to be a good one.  Especially when you can't choose the feats.  Four: use a freaking template.  It's easy.  The hardest part is the table, and that's just data entry, it's time consuming, but not that hard.  For the rest, there's a post template.  To the right of the color selector, there's a box that says "please choose...", which contains a bunch of templates for posts.  Try those, or the ones in my Guide to Homebrewing (they're basically the same, just different colors I think).  Five: you have a dead level at level ONE.  LEVEL ONE.  HOW.  This is a joke class, isn't it?
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Offline Braininthejar

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Re: Homebrew Samurai Attempt
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2012, 08:20:59 AM »
Well, everyone started with something.   :D 
I will be updating the first post until I achieve something usable.

dman11235 - I will start with your comment since it is the shorter.

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There's....just so much wrong with this class that it may just be WORSE than the CW Samurai.  That's about the hardest thing to do when homebrewing, that's why I'm sure it has to be a joke.

Is there any place I can find "average" characters of different classes on different levels or do I have to write one up for the purpose of testing?

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One: read the Guide to Homebrewing, linked in the post templates wanted thread or find it in this forum

Ok

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Two: alignment restrictions will never be acceptable on a base class.  It's bad design.

This is one point I will strongly disagree on. A mindset defines a class and this class has abilities that actually depend on the mindset. There are asian guys in hardened wood scalemail wielding katanas and being chaotic. They can be called samurai but class-wise they will be fighters or even barbarians.

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Three: this class already exists.  It's called the Fighter.  When a primary class feature is feats, the class is not going to be a good one.

It is because feats already cover most things that can be done without being a caster. Every non-caster close combat class is "fighter +something -something". That being said, I'l see what I can do about it.

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Four: use a freaking template.

I will. I should be be able to update the first post sometime next week, unless the other comments make me scrap it altogether.

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Five: you have a dead level at level ONE.  LEVEL ONE.

A derp on my part. The daisho proficiency describes a katana as a "masterwork" bastard sword. I assumed they get it as standard on level 1.

Garyll: Kind of a review I was hoping for.

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I see dead levels at 1st level (lolwut?), 4th, 9th, 14th, and 18th. 7, 8, 12, 13, 17, and 19 aren't too hot either.

For level 1, see above. For others I will have to think of something (I think he will end with SOME dead levels. There is only so much class abilities you can come up with for a guy whose job is swinging a sword at people)

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How is the ability to demoralize as per the rules in the PHB different from the ability to demoralize as per the rules in the PHB that the Samurai can already use?

The discussion thread mentioned the intimidate abilities as pretty much the only good thing about the original concept so I kept it as was. I will change the bonus to untyped.

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Kinda flavorful, I guess. Still lacking a bit in the meat department, unless honor-bound is interpreted to give the bonus on just about any save. Cutting the Spirit can still be replaced by a Truedeath Crystal or the Ghost Touch property, and on more than just one attack per round.

Good question. It gives a bonus against being mind-controlled against the party, the nemezis of all swordsman-types. Also fear - samurai don't run (perhaps I should fill one of the dead levels with some additional fear-protection?) Unfortunately dying on duty does not constitute a violation of duty. An ability being replacable by a magic item... is it a disadvantage? Everything but full casting is.

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Cool, but you don't have anything that works with critical hits. Well, there's one thing in the Iajutsu style, but that one is barely anything. There's another small threat range increase in Single Blade style, but again, it's not much.

This may be the answer for high level abilities.

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Too little too late. At level 13, Diehard is flavorful, but the odds of getting to benefit from it are dreadfully low.

So, either I need to extend their "dead" treshold down or move the ability down.

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Your normal demoralization attempts are still standard actions, just FYI. Well, unless you bought some Fearsome armor, which you could have afforded since about level 6.

Ill check on that.

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I assume this is supposed to come at 20th level, and not level "the"? Does this still occur as a result of the normal Frightful Presence triggers

Yes and Yes. Unless it is changed in the next version, I will clarify.

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You could still normally have taken those Imp. and Greater TWF feats at levels 6 and 11, respectively. I mean, I know you're sort of getting the extra attack anyways through flurry, but you'll still want to have Imp. and Greater TWF for yet more attacks when you can.

You could if you have the dexterity. But that would make the character even more MAD than the design assumes. I agree on the second part but don't have a good idea how to handle it yet

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For the level 6 ability, what if the Samurai doesn't have Power Attack? What if he does, but has already taken the normal maximum penalty?
Do you mean the Greater Weapon Specialization feat for the level 11 ability?

 :banghead It didn't occur to me that comeone could make a two-handed weapon specialist without a power attack.
- he does more damage than he normally would
- Yes, my bad.

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The feat is called Weapon Finesse, not Finesse.
Technically, there's no such thing as an "Improved Staredown attempt". Improved Staredown only modifies an existing ability (Mass Staredown), it doesn't do anything on its own.

Strange - this is the part where I expected the most problems.

ImperatorK: Will read - I don't like the idea of lugging those 4 together but the contents will probably prove useful.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2012, 10:02:32 AM by Braininthejar »

Offline dman11235

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Re: Homebrew Samurai Attempt
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2012, 11:36:39 AM »
Alignment restrictions on base classes are one of the things that  Ibring up in the En Commandments to Homebrewing.  It's just not good design.  The end up shoehorning the class into a specific place, even if the class could theoretically be a different alignment.  The CW Samurai, Monk, and Barbarian are all perfect examples of this.  None of them have any class features that require an alignment (flavor requirements are not a requirement), it's just flavor.  And your class does not dictate your flavor.  Your flavor dictates your class.  Think Miko from OotS.  She's a Samurai.  But her class is Paladin.  Why can't that work?  Any time I see a base class with an alignment restriction, that's always my first statement on the class.  Either get rid of it, or make the class a PrC.  That's why PrCs exist: provide a way to make your character more specific.  Base classes: general abilities.  PrCs: specific abilities that augment a base class.  Examples: Radiant Servant of Pelor is the most obvious.  Take the Cleric (which can be of any god, or any alignment even, not even tied to a god), and make it more specifically a Cleric of Pelor.  Or how about the Fist of the Forest: take the Monk, and make it a nature-based character.

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Every non-caster close combat class is "fighter +something -something".

This is not true.  The Monk isn't this.  The Rogue isn't this.  The Barbarian isn't this.  The Martial Adepts aren't this.  Ranger?  Nope.  Scout?  nope.  Knight?  Nope.  Only the Samurai.  And the Fighter isn't so hot a place to begin with, especially design wise.  Reading my guide will shed light on this.

Also, I didn't add this to my guide, but maybe I should: equipment is 0 class features.  Equipment is the worst thing you could possibly try to pass off as a class feature.  They sole exception being the Kensai, because of how it's done.  The Soulknife has this problem so badly, and the Samurai is even worse.  Getting gold is not a class feature, at all.  And this goes double for base classes.

Finally, you'll notice I hate on the CW Samurai quite a bit in my guide.  This is because it is the single worst class in the entire game, in all but one category.  It is the worst designed, weakest, dumbest class in the entire game.  Truenamer has more redeeming qualities than it.  If you don't know how bad that is, then know this: the Truenamer class doesn't even work.  It literally broken to the point where you cannot use its class features.  The CW Samurai is not worth a remake, because its premise is so incredibly flawed that I honestly think it was allowed in as a joke on the part of the developers.  They wanted to see how much stuff they could pull with a single book, and managed to get that monstrosity through.  The only thing the CW Samurai is good for is an example of how NOT to make a class.  You might be able to make a good PrC out of it, but it would require starting from scratch.  Take the flavor....and that's it.  That's all the class gives you anyways.  Take the flavor, make some new abilities that work with it, advance some other base class (something like the Knight could replace it nicely), and work from there.
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Offline Garryl

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Re: Homebrew Samurai Attempt
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2012, 01:03:25 PM »
Is there any place I can find "average" characters of different classes on different levels or do I have to write one up for the purpose of testing?
I'd advise reading JaronK's Tier System. It's not perfect, but it gets the general idea across. You should generally shoot for the upper end of Tier 3 with homebrewed classes (it's far easier to end up weaker or less versatile than you think you are than to be too much stronger, and it's easier to nerf it a bit if you find yourself really wanting a Tier 4 class for some reason). Looking at the descriptions of the tiers, the classes that are in them, and the reasons why should give you a decent basis for building appropriate classes.


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A derp on my part. The daisho proficiency describes a katana as a "masterwork" bastard sword. I assumed they get it as standard on level 1.
An old friend of mine loved to say "When you assume, you make an ass out of you and me". Don't assume that players will read your intent into anything you write, so explicitly state anything you intend to have. Heck, you only mention the term "daisho" in the context of the combat arts, and they only come online at level 2.

On a related note, a masterwork weapon is not ever a class feature. Even a magic weapon is barely ever a class feature (see the Soulknife, and that class sucks). No class feature should ever be obsolete the level after you get it. Ideally, they should last you your whole career.

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Garyll: Kind of a review I was hoping for.
Two 'r's, one 'l'.

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For level 1, see above. For others I will have to think of something (I think he will end with SOME dead levels. There is only so much class abilities you can come up with for a guy whose job is swinging a sword at people)
Try hard. You can do it. Throw in a couple of bonus feats if you absolutely have to. The people who swing their swords at other people are the ones who most need all the interesting class features they can get. They don't have spellcasting or whatever to fall back on.

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Good question. It gives a bonus against being mind-controlled against the party, the nemezis of all swordsman-types. Also fear - samurai don't run (perhaps I should fill one of the dead levels with some additional fear-protection?) Unfortunately dying on duty does not constitute a violation of duty. An ability being replacable by a magic item... is it a disadvantage? Everything but full casting is.
Some fear protection, and later mind-affecting protection (or even outright immunity) is a very good idea. Your class will feel better if you bake the flavor into its abilities, rather than saying that the class has flavor and just offering some vague bonuses when you follow it. Samurai don't flee? Grant immunity to fear. Samurai don't betray their allies? Grant immunity to charms and compulsions. Samurai follow a strong code of honor? Give them some powerful and flavorful abilities relating to that code of honor that your players won't want to forget.

An ability being replaceable by a magic item does not invalidate it. An ability being replaceable by a cheap magic item does. Especially when that class feature seems to come out of nowhere. You don't have any spirituality or spirit-fighting elsewhere in the class to build on or to lead into. Since the effect is a very conditional one, and is easily replaceable, its value falls to that of only a minor, flavorful ability, except that without the flavor elsewhere in the class, it lacks even the flavorful component.

Offline Braininthejar

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Re: Homebrew Samurai Attempt
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2012, 01:37:16 PM »
Barbarian = fighter + HP, + rage - bonus feats
Ranger = fighter + a couple of useful spells + a guard dog + good with animals - bonus feats and heavy armor
I concede on the monk

Miko... I just used exactly the same example, didn't I? A character can be a samurai without being a samurai class. But if he actually wants to be a samurai class, having a stick up his ass is part of the package. It gives him the focus required to use his special abilities.

Obviously, it can be done your way and very simply:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Samurai
Fighter variant
At level 1, exchange shield and tower shield proficiency for quick draw and bastard sword exotic weapon proficiency.

Iaijutsu adept (feat)
Requires: quick draw, exotic weapon proficiency bastard sword, BAB 4+
Benefit: balance and iaijutsu focus become class skills
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But part of my reason for writing this is to learn to make homebrews. Once I do, I can use them for my own campaigns - so nobody but me and my players need to like it. But unless I learn to make the mechanics work, I may wake up half way through the campaign with something that objectively doesn't work.

This is why I need to work on this one until I hammer it into something that works. If I just drop it before learning everything I can from it, I will just create something equally abysmal next week.


Offline Braininthejar

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Re: Homebrew Samurai Attempt
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2012, 01:46:52 PM »
Quote
I'd advise reading JaronK's Tier System. It's not perfect, but it gets the general idea across. You should generally shoot for the upper end of Tier 3 with homebrewed classes (it's far easier to end up weaker or less versatile than you think you are than to be too much stronger, and it's easier to nerf it a bit if you find yourself really wanting a Tier 4 class for some reason). Looking at the descriptions of the tiers, the classes that are in them, and the reasons why should give you a decent basis for building appropriate classes.

I am aware of the tier system (prc tiers topic was how I got here from Gitp in the first place)
What I meant was an average character of that class for test purposes. So when a fellow reviewer sais that my version is even worse than the handbook samurai, I can make an example samurai by my rules and throw the two characters at each other / identical challenges, to see what works and what doesn't

I can make such characters myself but I know my ideas don't always match others'. For example, if I want to test my samurai in comparison to a fighter, my first idea would be a guy power-attacking with an axe, but for another person a "typical warrior" is a chain tripper.

Offline dman11235

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Re: Homebrew Samurai Attempt
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2012, 07:49:55 PM »
You haven't made homebrews before?  I thought I've seen your stuff here before?

Well, if you want to start making homebrews, start by reading my Guide.  The 10 commandments will help your stuff work better.  As far as barbarian=fighter+HP+Rage-feats, well.....barbarian is Cleric+HP, +rage-spellcasting.......those are meaningless statements, are they not?  The reason the Samurai is just the Fighter but worse is because it takes the Fighter class feature, i.e.,  feats, and that's it.  Adds some worthless Intimidate and gp bonus, a code of conduct (another thing no base class should ever have, actually), and calls itself a new class.  That's not a new class, that's a specific Fighter build.

Also, when making a homebrewed thing, it's important to actually make new mechanics, not just fill out the Fighter with specific feats and call it a new class.  So actually have new mechanics.  You want to do a remake?  Try the KNight.  That thing's got a bunch of potential, but it wasn't executed well at all.  I'm currently working towards that one, but I've got the skill system to rewrite...and combat basics....and the entire system.....
My Sig's Handy Haversack  Need help?  Want to see what I've done?  Want to see what others have done well?  Check it out.

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Offline Braininthejar

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Re: Homebrew Samurai Attempt
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2012, 10:12:36 AM »
Well, I tried to make a monk before but received no feedback (and based on what I have seen here, I am going to playtest it and put it in a chart before I bump it.)

If I do try another one, It will be swashbuckler (the knight has so many related prestige classes, it really is redundant as a base class, especially if you don't want alignment restrictions)

I may be semi-absent this week due to installing Mass Effect 3

Offline veekie

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Re: Homebrew Samurai Attempt
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2012, 11:37:47 AM »
Well, some factors are internal synergy, mechanical coherence and also, for stuff based partially on RL myth and legends, research.

Work out how they're supposed to fight first, without considering specific mechanics. From there, identify subsidiary capabilities, as well as necessary secondary abilities for the basic combat style to work.
RL based classes can have huge variety, Samurai for example, used polearms, bows and 1/2 handed slashing swords from horseback, as well as 2 handed swords or bows dismounted and a smaller blade for parrying and close combat(like grappling).
Their combat style lays the foundation of the arts of kendo(2 handed heavy-hitting slashing style), iaido(1 handed draw-cut) and kyujutsu(zen archery, with emphasis precision over rate of fire), so you could choose to support a highly versatile style, which is difficult to do, or you can make them focused on a particular branch.
For a versatile samurai then, you'd be dealing with the entry barriers, cost of maintaining multiple valid weapons(given that magic weapons are extremely expensive, some form of auto enchant would not be amiss), multiple required abilities(archery is Dex primary, everything else is str primary, but polearm use has dex secondary as well for combat reflexes, you could of course, make it all Wis primary and Dex secondary).
And thats just to bring the style up to par with standard forms, from there, you need to include actual abilities compatible with all these styles. Strong single strike damage source(game mechanics say static damage increases, multiplier sources and critical hit improvements are best for this archetype due to the high crit multiplier of bows/polearms, and the supposed high crit range of katanas), social capabilities and leadership abilities to finish it off.

From there, you can see, the CW samurai is probably best discarded entire first.

Swashbuckler now, is instead oriented on high mobility combat, relatively fragile characters, precision damage, lots of style and dirty tricks. Two weapons, one handed weapons, or one handed weapons with a buckler(where the name comes from) are archetypical to it, as is light or absent armor. Problems are that these styles all are inherently clashing, and you'd be having difficulty getting past the entry barrier. Fortunately, you don't have to support all three weapon styles at once, generally a given swashbuckler only uses one of them.
Mobility itself requires a bonus damage source(like skirmish) to overcome the loss of full attacks, enhanced movement(spring attacks or even flyby attacks leave you within easy distance of the enemy in most cases) and powerful damage avoidance(mitigating low AC from light armor), on top of the entry costs of the Spring attack chain. Reach can also help, especially if you grant reach for using their weapon one handed.
Twin weapon swashbucklers get even worse of a deal, they have to stay based to an enemy, which gets in the way of high mobility, and they get a second set of feat taxes. So they need ways to use both weapons while moving all over the place, and the TWF feats from somewhere.
Mechanically as well, 1H has basically no benefits, though increasing effective reach/crit multiplier with such weapons can help a bit.
Get past these entry barriers and you get to the dirty tricks, which means they need access to debuffing attacks and some kind of ways to manipulate or make use of terrain.
I'd suggest actually using a Ranger, swap nature stuff for charismatic stuff and borrow from swordsage(Charisma Edition) and scout as a starting chassis for it really.
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Offline Braininthejar

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Re: Homebrew Samurai Attempt
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2012, 10:17:02 PM »
OK, here is version 1.1 I hope I have managed to apply at least some of your advice. If it is any better than 1.0, I will edit it into the first post. ( and possibly into a template)

Samurai
Alignment: any lawful. A samurai that ceases to be lawful or commits a grave act against honor, loses access to all abilities marked * (they can be regained by the same rules as for paladins)
Attack bonus: full
HD = D10
Saves: strong fortitude and will
Skill points per level: 4
Skills: balance, concentration, craft, diplomacy, intimidate, iaijutsu, knowledge (nobility / history / religion or local), profession, ride, sense motive (heal home-ruled as profession-medic)

Weapons and armour: proficient with all simple and martial weapons but no shields. Also gains katana exotic weapon proficiency
Notes on weapons:
A daisho is a set of a katana (bastard sword) and wakizashi (short sword). Whenever an ability applies to “daisho weapons” it means either or both. (for example, a character might take Oversized Two Weapon Fighting to use Daisho Dual-wield on two katanas.)
Kiai weapons are any close combat weapons that directly apply the wielder’s strength and so can be used for a kiai strike. That excludes: cavalry lance (uses the steed’s speed), whips, chains and flails of any kind ( rely on elasticity or inertia) and any variations thereof. Using kiai strike with unarmed strike requires Improved Unarmed Strike feat.

Level 1
Daisho Dual-wield: A samurai gains a Two-Weapon Fighting feat. If he meets the dexterity requirement, the feat applies to all weapons, otherwise it only applies to daisho weapons. A samurai can ignore the dexterity requirement when acquiring any “two weapon” feats, but unless he actually meets them, the feats will only apply to daisho weapons.
Iaijutsu fighter: A samurai gains a Quick Draw feat. Also, when using daisho weapons for a iaijutsu attack, he causes an extra 1D6 damage.

Level 2
Duty over fear*: A samurai never gets past shaken when subjected to fear effects.

Level 3
Kiai strike: Once per round and up to one time per class level per day, a samurai can make a battlecry while striking a blow on his turn, gaining a damage bonus equal to his charisma bonus (twice the charisma bonus for two-handed weapons.) A kiai strike must be declared before rolling to hit. The bonus applies to this one attack, including any Cleave that might result. (exception: a strike maneuver is considered “one attack” regardless of how many opponents it hits) It is treated as weapon damage for the purpose of damage multipliers. A kiai strike can only be performed with kiai weapons (see: notes on weapons). A samurai cannot perform a kiai strike when silenced or unable to breathe, unless he is a creature type that does not normally speak/breathe.
 
Level 4
Duty till the last breath*: At this level the samurai gains the Diehard feat.
Staredown: A samurai gains +4 bonus to intimidation tests and adds 4 to his level when resisting intimidation.

Level 5
Cutting the spirit: At this level, the samurai’s kiai strike can harm incorporal beings, ignoring the normal miss chance.

Level 6
Shielded by honor*: A samurai gets a +2 bonus against compulsion effects. He can also make a new save against a charm or compulsion effect, whenever it would cause him to attack his allies. Overlaps but does not stack with an extra save that charm and domination effects grant for actions against one’s nature (the samurai will only get one extra save but the bonuses will stack in case of compulsion effects)

Level 7
Splitting strike: At this level, the samurai’s kiai strike can score critical hits against constructs and corporeal undead.
Iaijutsu specialist: the samurai’s iaijutsu strike damage with daisho weapons increases by another 1D6.

Level 8
Mass staredown: At this level a samurai can attempt to demoralize all opponents within 30 feet with a single standard action.

Level 9
Enlightened iai strike: Once per combat (a combat is considered over when a samurai spends one turn not threatened by anyone) a samurai can expend one daily use of kiai to make a iaijutsu attack against an opponent who isn’t flat-footed. The attack is a kiai strike for all purposes.

Level 10
Duty stronger than death* At this level, the samurai’s death threshold increases by 10 (normally this means that he dies at HP-20)
Improved staredown: A samurai can now use mass staredown as a move action.

Level 11
Greater splitting strike: At this level, the samurai’s kiai strikes have a doubled critical range (triple, if it was already doubled by another source, even those that normally do not stack)

Level 12
Flurry of blows: this ability applies to daisho weapons and to any kiai weapons the samurai has Weapon Focus in. When making a full attack with such weapons (and only such weapons – a mixed set will unbalance the kata) a samurai can take a -2 penalty on all attack rolls this turn to make an extra attack at the highest bonus with each weapon.

Level 13
Kiai mastery: At this level, all of the samurai’s attacks made with kiai weapons benefit from cutting the spirit, splitting strike and the kiai bonus damage. If a kiai strike is actually used, the damage bonus adds up. Also, a samurai is no longer limited to one kiai strike per round and can apply kiai strikes to attacks made out of his turn (such as attacks of opportunity).

Level 14
Iaijutsu expert: a samurai’s iaijutsu damage with daisho weapons increases by another 1D6 (for a total of 3D6 extra damage) Also, whenever he connects with a iaijutsu strike, he can use mass staredown as a free action. (if the attack manages to fell the target, the staredown gets a +4 circumstance bonus)

Level 15
Slayer of demons: At this level, all of the samurai’s attacks made with kiai weapons ignore 5 points of the target’s damage reduction.

Level 16
Driven by honor*: A samurai becomes immune to fear effects. Also, if he is subject to a paralysis effect, he can remain mobile for one round before succumbing.

Level 17
Soul of the blade: The force of the samurai’s spirit is channelled through his weapon, allowing him to deliver the full force of the blow by just nicking his opponent . The samurai’s kiai strikes have their range increased by one square. (he can expend a kiai use out of turn to perform an attack of opportunity that would otherwise be out of range)

Level 18
Unbreakable honor*: The samurai’s bonus against compulsion effects increases by +2 (for a total of +4). He can also expend a daily use of kiai to ignore the effects of the following conditions for one round: disabled, exhaused, fatigued, nauseated, sickened, paralyzed, staggered.

Level 19
Moment of perfection: At this level, all the samurai’s kiai strikes have their critical multiplier increased by one. Those made with slashing weapons are also vorpal.

Level 20
Honor over flesh*: At this level, a samurai can keep moving even despite debilitating injuries, propelling his body forward by will alone. For a number of rounds per day equal to his base will save plus his charisma modifier (divided as he likes), he can ignore any penalties of the following effects: paralysis, penalties from damage or drain to strength and dexterity, penalties (but not damage on movement) from being disabled, penalties from level drain, any effects that can be ignored through Unbreakable honor and any roll penalties from effects that could be resisted with either a constitution or a will save.

Also, if a samurai is subject to an effect that should cause instant death (such as finger of death or implosion), petrification, polymorph effect, destruction or banishment (where applicable), unless he is surprised, he can delay it for a number of rounds equal to his charisma modifier. Any connected effects (such as blowing up from a detonation spell) are likewise delayed. After the delay, the effect takes place normally. Magical effects may be countered during the delay but death/destruction/petrification/banishment will still occur unless a Miracle or Wish is cast during that time. (for example – a detonation spell can be dispelled during the delay, even though it is normally an instant effect. If it is, the samurai will still die but he will not explode). The ability does not apply to spells and effect that trap the samurai’s soul (such as the demilich’ power)
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 10:22:59 PM by Braininthejar »

Offline veekie

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Re: Homebrew Samurai Attempt
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2012, 01:58:08 PM »
Alright, this reply is a little late but lets see...

Core Offense:
Daisho weapons: You have dex-free TWF, but only the first feat. Either you need higher dex later, or you simply won't be TWFing, since you only ever get one attack out of it. Two with flurry. Three with double speed weapons.

Iaijutsu: While I wouldn't normally recommend having an imbalanced mechanic get improved by a class, but it does do respectable damage, with the draw-drop strategy. This might not actually look LIKE a samurai though. Also Iaijutsu requires a flatfooted enemy, and this is a low Dex(thus, low Init), TWF Melee class which would rarely be getting iaijutsu bonus on attacks.

Kiai Strike: It doesn't really add THAT much damage(or scale that well), since Charisma appears to be a secondary or tertiary stat here. However, the rider effects make it decent with iaijutsu, if not with TWF.
Kiai mastery makes it fairly decent, since it becomes at will.
Slayer of demons just doesn't bypass enough DR at level 15 though. Consider there are ways to completely bypass DR at lower levels already.
Soul of the blade is nice but its also kinda late for what it does.
Moment of perfection now, is cool, especially with the mad flurry setups.

Staredown: Bonus to intimidation is useful for the social aspect I suppose, and an on-demand, fast, mass debuff is good to have for a martial class.

Flurry of blows: Query, what happens if you have four different daisho/kiai weapons(say getting WF using discipline focus), draw them, attack with them, drop them and draw a different one. You get an extra attack for each weapon?

Defense:
Armor: I assume heavy?

Duty over fear: Mostly space-filler. What about attacks like Phantasmal Killer? Might work better to add a bonus to saves vs fear instead, or take a leaf from the paladin and outright grant immunity.

Duty till the last breath/Duty stronger than death: Nice to have, but not too significant, ideally you don't want to be that close to death after all.

Shielded by honor: More will defenses, again, nice to have, but fairly narrow.

Unbreakable honor: The bonus against compulsions is barely worth noting at this point, but the effect-ignoring is good, but late.

Honor over Flesh: Suitably dramatic to be sure for a capstone.
-----------------------
Ok, overall analysis. You have split offense focus here, a mass of multiple attacks, intimidation, iaijutsu and powerful single strikes. Defensively, you have mainly defenses against specific subschools of Enchantment, and an extended hp bar from Diehard and its upgrades. Utility wise, no abilities outside of combat, though theoretically you have the skills for diplomacy.
Ability scores, you have Str, Con, Cha as priorities, with Dex(for init) if you want to make any use of advanced TWF/Iaijutsu.

What I'd advise is to focus on one or the other.
Kiai Strike would actually make a decent base to build off on, particularly with its single attack nature working better with iaijutsu at early levels(at late, consider what it looks like to have an invisible samurai going up to and then full attacking people by repeatedly drawing his weapon). It could also help if you could perform Iaijutsu on a Kiai as if the target was flatfooted, that could bring up your single strike damage to rather respectable levels. Additional rider effects would also help at later levels, particularly auto-threat, etc.
You could fairly easily link the intimidate stuff to the Kiai as well, so that you don't waste rounds applying a small debuff at early levels(at later levels the intimidation no longer costs you attacks so much, so its better)

Another suggestion is to just drop the Daisho concept, or else provide more to it. As it is, all it does is provide early TWF that goes entirely unsupported later. Whatever happens to the Improved/Greater Two Weapon Fighting feats? You do get a loosely worded Flurry, and as with all dice adders, Iaijutsu works if you can catch them flatfooted.

Most of the assorted mental defenses stuff as well, can be rolled into tidier will save bonuses, Mettle of Will and rerolls. As they are now the odds of running into them are fairly low per-level.

Finally, it could do with some non-combat capabilities beyond skill points, or augment their archetypical skill features. Some kind of reputation based ability might work, given their secondary charisma.

Wow that meandered all over the place for a bit.
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Offline Braininthejar

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Re: Homebrew Samurai Attempt
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2012, 08:57:11 PM »
The good thing is, I learned a lot. The bad thing is, I am now sick of this class. Thank you for your input.

I am going to try swashbuckler next ( it is a nice concept that sadly doesn't work and unlike the samurai, it can't be that easily substituted with other classes (the closest would be rouge-ish fighter variants.))

However, instead of making a full description like here, I will post stuff as I go. This should save me from the problem of "falling in love with my work" - I tend to become inflexible with a concept I have already finished and it makes it hard to make improvements.

Offline veekie

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Re: Homebrew Samurai Attempt
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2012, 01:14:13 AM »
Same tips as the above I guess. Identify theme and establish core fighting style. If the style doesn't work out of the box, grant perks to make it work.

Minor aside, does your swashbuckler use a sword with a buckler?
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Offline Braininthejar

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Re: Homebrew Samurai Attempt
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2012, 02:42:55 PM »
I am not sure. I have been looking for works that feature such characters to get the feel of the archetype and bucklers don't get used that much anywhere. To make the buckler usable, I'd have to make something that makes it better than dual-wielding (unlikely without doing something weird) or allow the character to attack with both hands without the buckler penalty (but is this what we are aiming at?)

So... starting with the loose ideas phase:

WHAT I EXPECT FROM SWASHBUCKLER

1 A swashbuckler fights with no or light armour, using agility and quick thinking to stay out of harm's way.

He needs some way to increase his AC while unarmored. My initial idea is to base the bonus on the balance skill.

2 A swashbuckler fights on the move. A pair of duelling swashbucklers can go through the whole building before one deals the decisive blow.

Definitely a Spring Attack feat tree. The AC can also be tied to movement - from by personal experience in fencing, controlling your distance is the key to any fight.

3 Swashbucklers fight dirty.

Besides things like Trip and Disarm, a swashbuckler should be able to benefit from Feint. It is exactly the type of combatant that the feat evokes. That means, he needs some kind of precision damage. That will pidgeon-hole him a bit as precission damage doesn't work on many things, but if you decide to play a swashbuckler, you want sea adventures and rooftop chases, not dungeon-crawling. 

4 True swashbucklers never seem to be bothered by flanking.

Yes, this starts to make more and more like a rogue. I will have to draw a line somewhere.

5 Swashbucklers are lucky.

We do have luck feats already... perhaps we add one for free if we run into an empty level later.

6 Swashbucklers do stunts, fight up staircases, swing on ropes and slide down roofs.

We need skills. Also some ways to make risky moves easier. The original swashbuckler did address that so I might borrow some.

7 Swashbucklers are charming... often despite their appearance.

A swashbuckler already needs high fighting stats and high int for skills. I don't want him more MAD. Int to social skills perhaps? Jack Sparrow is a drunk covered in random jewelry, with halitosis that practically counts as a breath weapon - but through his wit he always gets what he wants from people.   
 
8 I have no idea what to do for the capstone ability.

Anything luck-based is covered by luck feats already. And a Dread Pirate PrC already coveres a swashbuckler with leadership skills.

« Last Edit: July 05, 2012, 03:28:36 PM by Braininthejar »

Offline veekie

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Re: Homebrew Samurai Attempt
« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2012, 03:35:00 PM »
Well, Swashbucklers were supposed to favor a flashy, mobile, high finesse, 1-handed weapon combat style. So start by augmenting that I suppose.

The inherent flaws to overcome:
-1 handed combat doesn't do a whole lot of damage. Power Attack and Strength doesn't add much to damage, and accuracy isn't any better than 2 handed combat.
-Finesse itself means you need supplementary damage sources, as you lose out on even the basic strength.
-Mobility, as demonstrated by Spring Attack, Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz, starts with the problems of having A) fewer attacks than full attacking, B) provoking a crapton of AoOs with all that movement, C) requiring an unnecessarily large number of feats, with the whole chain consisting of Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Bounding Assault, and Rapid Blitz, along with various high Dex and BAB requirements. Its also incompatible with TWF, not that anyone but Fighters have the kind of feats to throw at the problem.

Opportunities:
-'Flashy' combat allows for a wide range of potential rider effects on attacks, extending beyond the standard special attacks to include a spectrum of dirty tricks like blinding, intimidating, misdirecting attacks, on top of scoring debilitating injuries and feinting as part of movement/attacks.
-'Mobile' combat lets you pack more stuff into single attacks, because thats all you'd be getting. You can get away with giving it area attacks, debuffs on attacks, multiplied damage, nastier crits, etc(or multiple at once even), because it'd be only taking one attack action in its round, so the effects can be comparable to maneuvers and spells. Supernatural movement abilities should be included as well.
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Offline Braininthejar

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Re: Homebrew Samurai Attempt
« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2012, 05:45:02 PM »
I see the biggest problem are the feats required to get the fighting style working. Not including any in the class makes it inflexible, as it will require specific feats to "work", forcing the players into a single build. Give too many and I make my creation another "themed fighter". Perhaps I can get some ideas during the night.

Loose ideas for other stuff:

Low one-handed weapon damage:

- Dexterity to damage ( light one handed weapons, rapier, scimitar). Won't do by itself but solves the problem of dumping strength over dexterity.

- Precission damage ( my initial idea is to have it work on "denied dexterity" and on AoO but not on flanking. The archetypical enemy for a swashbuckler is another swashbuckler and flanking isn't very effective on them

- Possibly special effects with attacks, as you suggested.

- Giving high level swashbucklers a second 5 foot step, so they can full attack while letting the opponent get only one hit in return. ( I'd like your advice on this one especially. How "breakable" do you think it would be? )

Mobile combat style provoking AoO:

- Tumble? It is something a swashbuckler is supposed to be able to do.

Feat-heavy combat style:

- one of the biggest problems. Dodge, Mobility and Combat Expertise are pretty much required for any build to work. As I said, I will have to think about it.

Special effects and mobile combat: 

- I remember a feat that allowed each crit to be a sneak attack. Something like this would work with a rapier.
- free trip attempt if an attack hits by a given margin?
- free attack after a disarm?
- a growing bonus to trip/disarm/feint opposed checks?
- a chance to ruin the opponent's next attack/daze him by sucker-punching him as part of a feint?
- being able to switch places with the opponent on an effective feint?
- an ability to "press the advantage", following the opponent when he tries to make a 5 foot step away from you?

Some of these will inevitabely duplicate feats... I wouldn't go as far as Su though. We have a swordsage for that.

Defensive ability:

First draft:

- Footwork - As long as he moves at least 10 feet during his actions, a swashbuckler gains a dodge bonus to AC equal to half his balance skill (ranks + bonuses, rounded down) up to the maximum of 5+ class level or the maximum dexterity bonus allowed by his armour, whichever is lower. The bonus is lost if the swashbuckler is denied his dexterity bonus to AC.

My first idea was to tie it directly to the ranks but at half it was too little and at full it made the AC rise steeply with no optimalisation effort from the player. The class level cap is there to prevent it from becoming a broken dip.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2012, 05:49:33 PM by Braininthejar »