Author Topic: The best thing about Raise Dead is that it lowers your level.  (Read 12657 times)

Offline Tubercular Ox

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Now that I've tricked you into clicking this, I can be honest:  This is about IP Proofing.  I'm going to directly challenge the assumption that, over the course of 20 levels, you are not allowed to die once.

Everything I know about the IP Proofing argument is from reading handbooks and significant archived threads.  If this argument has been brought up before, I severely apologize, since I've probably started a flame war.  Here we go.

Let's start with a party of four 9th level characters (you'll see why in a bit).  They have their expected WBL: 36k GP of items.

As DM, you've written a schedule of 14 encounters, centered on CR 9, with which you plan to up your players to level 10.

The probability gods frown on your players, and over the course of the first four encounters, each party member dies once.  You now have a party of four 8th level characters.  Per table 3-2 on pg 49 of the DMG, 50% of their encounters should be CR 8.  Of the remaining 10 encounters on your 14 encounter level 9 to 10 schedule, only 10% of those encounters are going to be CR8.  Therefore, if you do not recenter your encounters around CR8, as DM, you are not doing your job.  This isn't coddling, this is following the rules.

But look at your level 8 party again.  They started with 36k WBL.  Let's say they put 5k worth of items at the pawn shop to pay for those Raise Deads.  That leaves them with 31k in magic items, 4k more than an 8th level character should have, and I'm completely ignoring the treasure they got from those first four encounters they failed at life on. 

Okay, so, you're a God among DMs, and determined not to coddle your players, and manage to find a way to plan your encounters centered on CR 8.1 or whatever.  That still means they're going to play through 8 of those encounters to regain level 9.  Looking at pg 54 of the DMG, "Behind the Curtains" on treasure, they're going to pull in a little more than 5k gp of treasure.  What are they going to do with that 5k?  Get the items they pawned to pay for Raise Dead out of hock.

They are now level 9 again, with their expected WBL, and get another shot at your CR 9 centered encounters, without having "fallen behind" at all.

If letting them pawn items 1 for 1 is DM coddling, then just up the example to 12th level characters, and they can flat out sell their items at the 2:1 ratio to pay for their Raise Dead spells, and still be overwealthed for 11th level characters... which is going to make replaying through the second half of 11th level a lot easier for them (unless you decide to calibrate the encounters some fraction of a CR), also netting them 50k gp of treasure.  They use up 40k of that treasure replacing the items they sold for the Raise Dead spells, and still have 10k to gloat over.  It gets worse at higher levels.  All this player death means, as DM, at high levels, you're actually going to be sawing at the reins to keep your players from exploding with treasure... or they're going to be burning through consumables at an incredible rate.  Expensive material component?  I'll buy 12.

IP Proofing is still important.  Your characters still need to be IP Proof to the point where they only die once every two and a half levels or so.  (Once to fall back a level, then a half level to regain that level, then a full level to actually keep advancing instead of being stuck on a treadmill)  However, the idea that you must win 250 times in a row is bunk, if you play by the rules in the DMG. 

Since every guidebook I can find on IP Proofing has been rage-deleted because of the ensuing flame war, I have no idea how IP Proof you need to be for this to happen.  And quite frankly, I am not up to the math.  Help?

Of course, all this madness doesn't start until level 9 at the earliest, and level 12 at the latest.  Until then, they would do well to have a patron who is willing to keep loaning them the Raise Deads they need until they are high enough level to pay it back.  Is that DM coddling?  Possibly.  But it's also realistic.  If I were a retired high level cleric (Those aging penalties can kill your adventuring career), I'd be raking in the dough simply by loan sharking low level adventurers, and squeezing the ones that make it to high level for ridiculous interest rates.  Which, btw, is a GREAT way to "saw at the reins" for all the treasure your high level characters are going to be exploding with.  Re-fluff as necessary.  Benevolent father figure instead of loan shark, pious donation instead of paying back interest, whatever.

Again, I apologize if this has been brought up already.  If it has, it needs to be added as an addendum somewhere in the handbooks section, since going through that is where I found all the flame wars about IP Proofing.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2012, 03:17:57 PM by Tubercular Ox »

Offline SneeR

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Re: The best thing about Raise Dead is that it lowers your level.
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2012, 04:27:00 PM »
Never thought about it that way... It actually makes me wonder how the death spiral could happen, RAW. I mean, it makes no sense for all the CR 9 encounters to just disappear and be replaced by CR 8 encounters story-wise, but according to the DMG, that is how it should be.

I guess I just never paid attention to the CR requirements because CR is so blatantly borked from even the first glance.
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Offline wotmaniac

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Re: The best thing about Raise Dead is that it lowers your level.
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2012, 04:37:48 PM »
Very insightful/studious/awesome.  I approve this message.   :thumb



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Offline ImperatorK

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Re: The best thing about Raise Dead is that it lowers your level.
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2012, 04:54:02 PM »
Quote
This isn't coddling, this is following the rulesguidlines.
FTFY.
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Offline Bearchucks

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Re: The best thing about Raise Dead is that it lowers your level.
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2012, 06:18:57 PM »
It's easy enough to see how you might get encounters one CR lower.  Attacking a bandit headquarters?  Smith and Jones have pegasus flu, so they can't guard the room, leaving just Johnson, Jackson, Sanders, and Baker.  There's lots of different ways for the CRs to drop.

One death every two and a half levels.  Given you're (theoretically) supposed to have 13 encounters/level (yeah, right), that's...around 33 encounters.  A 1/day reroll and only failing the save on a 1 would get you 1:400 odds. 1/33 is easy by comparison.  A 1/day reroll and failing on 1-3 would get you around a 1:36 chance of dying...if I'm running the math right.

Offline Tubercular Ox

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Re: The best thing about Raise Dead is that it lowers your level.
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2012, 08:24:51 PM »
Quote
This isn't coddling, this is following the rulesguidelines.
FTFY.

I'm fine with that fix.  If a DM wants to go outside the guidelines and hardball their level 8 party with CR 9 centered encounters, that's a play style choice.  Have fun.

Offline Kethrian

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Re: The best thing about Raise Dead is that it lowers your level.
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2012, 09:05:08 PM »
But according to the DMG, CR 7,8,9 are all EL 8s, so you could still throw CR 9s at them without a problem.
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Offline Sinfire Titan

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Re: The best thing about Raise Dead is that it lowers your level.
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2012, 09:14:09 PM »
But according to the DMG, CR 7,8,9 are all EL 8s, so you could still throw CR 9s at them without a problem.

Do bear in mind that the DMG, the various MMs, and the CR system in general was written by a group of people who had the same sense of balance as a piss-drunk monkey high on cocaine. While the rules of this game should not be disregarded because of their flaws, you really shouldn't listen to some parts of those rules at all.
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Offline Kethrian

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Re: The best thing about Raise Dead is that it lowers your level.
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2012, 09:36:54 PM »
But according to the DMG, CR 7,8,9 are all EL 8s, so you could still throw CR 9s at them without a problem.

Do bear in mind that the DMG, the various MMs, and the CR system in general was written by a group of people who had the same sense of balance as a piss-drunk monkey high on cocaine. While the rules of this game should not be disregarded because of their flaws, you really shouldn't listen to some parts of those rules at all.

Oh, I know that.  I just wanted to point out that since he's using the DMG as the basis for his argument, the very same book has made allowances for just such a thing, strangely enough.
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Offline Tubercular Ox

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Re: The best thing about Raise Dead is that it lowers your level.
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2012, 09:59:12 PM »
Oh, I know that.  I just wanted to point out that since he's using the DMG as the basis for his argument, the very same book has made allowances for just such a thing, strangely enough.

I agree completely, it behooves me to respect arguments like this, even though we all know CR is crap.

The column you're reading says that a single monster of CR 8, 9, or 10 is an EL 9 encounter.

If your encounter schedule is going to include only single monsters, then as DM, in a 14 encounter schedule, 7 have to be equal EL.  You have to decide whether that means 7 CR 10 single monsters, or 7 CR 8 single monsters, or 2 CR 8, 3 CR 9, and 2 CR 10 single monsters.  The guidelines are encouraging you to make a judgement call.  If, as a DM, you are capable of judging how many single monsters in a row your players can face, then you are also capable of judging, appropriately, whether the same party, minus a level, can face the same schedule.  It's going to be very hard to argue that two parties, differing only by level, are equally up to the challenge of the same schedule, charts be damned.

Of course, if your schedule includes any groups of 2 or more monsters, they fall under a part of the chart where the EL maps 1:1 with the CR, and those encounters *definitely* have to change.  I have no idea what a typical schedule looks like for your groups, but the ones I see tend to include multiple monsters, taking this whole decision out of the DM's hands.

I mean, it makes no sense for all the CR 9 encounters to just disappear and be replaced by CR 8 encounters story-wise,

If your players all die in one day (four encounters), and then they heal up and decide to go back into the same dungeon, yeah, it doesn't make sense.  But if they decide they really need to take a side trip to some other dungeon to pick up a macguffin that will help with the original dungeon, you have yourself an opportunity.  A party that knows when to retreat is going to be easier to deal with in this respect.

Edit:  I keep saying "have to."  Replace all those with "Have to, if you want to follow the guidelines"
« Last Edit: April 08, 2012, 10:10:03 PM by Tubercular Ox »

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: The best thing about Raise Dead is that it lowers your level.
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2012, 06:02:53 PM »
HA !!!

This is Experience Is A River, but on steroids.
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Offline InnaBinder

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Re: The best thing about Raise Dead is that it lowers your level.
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2012, 06:12:40 PM »
I'm not sure that I can get behind an argument centered around all of the scheduled encounters within a given dungeon spontaneously nerfing because the RNG went south on the players, but it's an interesting proposition.
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Offline TSS

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Re: The best thing about Raise Dead is that it lowers your level.
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2012, 06:29:39 PM »
I'm not sure if I can get behind an argument based around expecting the DM to spend dozens of hours rewriting things or writing some sort of catchup filler before the campaign can begin again.
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Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: The best thing about Raise Dead is that it lowers your level.
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2012, 07:38:34 PM »
The 'previous burned gold doesn't count towards WBL' argument just makes artificerscasters worse. Yes it may be how the creators envisioned it but they also envisioned Fighters to be the best fighters. The RAW on xp is well known to be messed up. Nothing new here except some minor rule lawyering that's not likely to fly with a tough DM.

That said, I do hate the 'no one can die' mentality. It might be metagame but keeping WBL player based instead of character based successfully thwarts 'yay dead PC's stuff for the party' abuse. Optionally forcing party-pooling for raise dead costs also facilitates teamwork as per gentleman's agreement.

I also approve of the max doable difficulty for each (hopefully prerolled, fast-paced) encounter.

Offline Tubercular Ox

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Re: The best thing about Raise Dead is that it lowers your level.
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2012, 07:49:44 PM »
This is Experience Is A River, but on steroids.

Wealth is a river.  With whitewater.

I'm not sure that I can get behind an argument centered around all of the scheduled encounters within a given dungeon spontaneously nerfing because the RNG went south on the players, but it's an interesting proposition.
I'm not sure if I can get behind an argument based around expecting the DM to spend dozens of hours rewriting things or writing some sort of catchup filler before the campaign can begin again.

I absolutely agree.  But if someone is going to look me (or you) in the eye and say with a straight face the only way to play by the rules is to be prepared to win 250 fights in a row, I'm going to look them in the eye and tell them they don't understand the rules as written.  And if the counter to that is, "Well, the rules create too much work for the DM," then my response is, "Yes.  Yes they do.  But are we talking about the rules, or about what works best for an individual group of players?"  Because that is exactly where I want this conversation to go.  I'm very sad that all the IP Proofing handbooks have been rage deleted, and it seems to me the problem is the people writing them can't get over the idea that there are play styles out there where characters might be able to lose a fight and recover.  To be perfectly honest, either I want that argument started again so I can have the joy of participating in it (I'm a troll), or I want the people who've done the math to wake up to the idea that you can lose a fight and still recover, and keep an IP Proofing handbook online that doesn't proselytize over the 250 wins no losses paradigm.  I love numbers, I'm just not the best at them.

If I had the understanding of the mechanics necessary to write it myself, an IP Proofing handbook would ask the question, "What is an acceptable win/loss ratio for your players?" then go into the numbers about how to figure out how IP proof they have to be to meet that.  An IP Proofing handbook should be a tool for DMs to estimate what kind of monsters they can throw at their players and expect them to survive to the next level.
Edit:  Also, while every group is going to have their own definition of what counts as a "fun" encounter, if a group of players decide they need to step up their game a little to have more fun, then an IP Proofing handbook could be a guideline for that.  The handbook doesn't need to turn it up to 11 and leave it there for it to be useful to multiple play styles.

PS: If I'd just shut up I could've had more recognition than posts by now.  That'd be a great screenshot.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 07:57:22 PM by Tubercular Ox »

Offline wotmaniac

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Re: The best thing about Raise Dead is that it lowers your level.
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2012, 09:03:06 PM »
PS: If I'd just shut up I could've had more recognition than posts by now.  That'd be a great screenshot.
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Offline RedWarlock

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Re: The best thing about Raise Dead is that it lowers your level.
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2012, 09:40:43 PM »
And another, because I agree wholeheartedly. On the other hand, I'm also of the mindset that if the designers meant for the system to work a specific way, and it doesn't, then the system needs to be fixed to reflect their intent. Mechanics should be altered to match vision, not the reverse.
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Offline RobbyPants

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Re: The best thing about Raise Dead is that it lowers your level.
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2012, 08:57:21 AM »
Nice, Tubercular Ox. :D


This is Experience Is A River, but on steroids.
Yeah, this is the other reason why losing a level isn't the end of the world so long as it doesn't happen too often. The extra XP you get for being a level lower more than makes up for what you lost over a few sessions (assuming you get your XP at the end of the session and not at the end of each encounter). This is a lot of why XP costs for crafting is stupid, but that's a different issue.


I guess I just never paid attention to the CR requirements because CR is so blatantly borked from even the first glance.
Yeah, as crappy as the CR system is, it's best used as a baseline for where to look in the MM rather than the Holy Bible for encounter planning. I think it's up to the DM to look at the monster's stats and figure out where it fits. Otherwise, you end up with adamantine clockwork horrors spamming 28d6 Disintegrates, Disjunctions, and Implosions at 9th level PCs.
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Offline Tubercular Ox

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Re: The best thing about Raise Dead is that it lowers your level.
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2012, 02:31:23 PM »
Yeah, as crappy as the CR system is, it's best used as a baseline for where to look in the MM rather than the Holy Bible for encounter planning. I think it's up to the DM to look at the monster's stats and figure out where it fits. Otherwise, you end up with adamantine clockwork horrors spamming 28d6 Disintegrates, Disjunctions, and Implosions at 9th level PCs.

Actually, another inspiration I had from reading the IP Proofing arguments revolves around the "40% of your encounters are above your encounter level" number.  This quote made me realize I'd fallen into the trap of always looking at a monster as an equal-level challenge.  That is, I only looked at a CR 10 as an equal level challenge for a level 10 party.  And that's not how the monsters are designed, per DMG.

A CR 10 monster could be the 1 in 20 "overwhelming" EL+5 encounter for a party of fifth level characters.  i.e, the BBEG.  It makes sense for a fifth level party at the top of their story arc to face a save or die of moderate DC, it's the BBEG, he's supposed to be tough.  If all he had were a save or suck, it'd be disappointing.  "MWA HAHAHA, Puny mortals, face the wrath of my single target 1 round daze attack!"

OTOH, it could be one mook in a group of twelve facing a level 17 party as an equal level encounter, which, theoretically, could be up to half of their encounters.  Now obviously this is a judgement call, and maybe some might consider it coddling, but I don't see a compelling reason to make my party face 24 SoDs in two back to back encounters.  24 one round dazes might make sense though.

So when you're looking at a monster and thinking, "Someone smoked crack when they CR'd this," you have to ask... is it possible this is a low level BBEG?  Or a high level mook?

Offline veekie

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Re: The best thing about Raise Dead is that it lowers your level.
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2012, 04:14:35 PM »
4E did take that into account, and for creatures intended to be used as individual or composite encounters, they do tend to have biases along those lines. Powerful solos usually have extremely hard hitting OHKO attacks because they simply cannot last long, even with the statistics gap, with the PCs action economying them. Massed mooks tend to have disproportionate attack success rate(but not power) to defense for the same reason, they are expected to be hit, and destroyed easily, but they need to be able to do something before they go down.

On the other hand sometimes the designers can't find their ass with two hands and map.
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