Advice on optimizing an archivist needed.

[Yirrare]

Dearest min/maxers.

Seeing how my first spellcaster is about to come to life I feel I need some assistance with the build.
The build I have thought of so far is Archivist 11/paragnostic apostle 5/Archivist x. He will be a Gnome for the trivial knowledge feat and using the Academic priest feat to reduce MAD. He will really need a dip into something for the turn undead ability to fuel his divine metamagic. Do note that the paragnostic apostle levels stacks with any dip for the turn undead ability (i.e. 1 level gives 6^th level turning) due to Holy texts. (Unsure if any class has level dependant turn undead ability. )

I plan to make my archivist mainly a debuffer/buffer with some minor healing. The other members will be a warblade, a wizard (who both have played a while) as well as some character played by a beginner. We will be using a 34 point-buy system and start at 8^th level. As far as I have understood the DM, pretty much any book as well as some homebrew will be allowed.
His story found here for those interested: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4292.0

I'll put some specific questions in one of these to prevent massive wall of text. (It tends to scare people off).

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• What class should I make my dip in for the turn and rebuke undead, to be able to fuel divine metamagic? (Note the Holy text of PA, see above.)
• What meta magic feats should I take? Which should I apply divine metamagic to? (Yes, when it comes to magic I am an 11 year old Harry Potter. All listed in Mooncrow's handbook seem nice, but I don't have unlimited feats.)
• Mooncrow also recommends the Dragonwrought feat in his handbook, and states that it gives +3 to all mental stats. Could someone help me understand where this is written/implied?
• The Paragnostic Apostle class comes with the knowledge is power feature with a lot of options. My thought was to take spatial awareness, mortal coil and mind over body. What other two should I take? Any other input on what to take?

References

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Archivist: Heroes of Horror, p. 82
Paragnostic apostle: Complete Champion, p. 94
Trivial Knowledge: Races of stone, p. 145
Mooncrow's Archivist Handbook: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=185.0  (<-- I need to figure out how to make proper links.  )

I would very much appreciate any and all help optimizing my  archivist as I know far too little about spellcasting (and optimization in general).

Best Regards
Yirrare

[sirpercival]

Dragonwrought is only helpful if you're a kobold.  So don't worry about that.

The usual dip for Turn Undead is Sacred Exorcist (from Complete Divine), though there are a couple others that can grant it to you.  Knight of the Raven, from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, can do it too (though at level 3 instead of 1).

I'd take a good long look at Par Apostle and see if there are really 5 levels worth of abilities that you want out of it.

If you're mostly going to be buffing, the best metamagic feats for you are Extend Spell and Persistent Spell, and then probably Reach Spell.

[Rebel7284]

paragnostic apostle has a really high opportunity cost for marginal abilities if you use it RAW with having to give away a good part of your gold to the paragnostic assembly.

[Yirrare]

Dragonwrought is only helpful if you're a kobold.  So don't worry about that.

The usual dip for Turn Undead is Sacred Exorcist (from Complete Divine), though there are a couple others that can grant it to you.  Knight of the Raven, from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, can do it too (though at level 3 instead of 1).

I'd take a good long look at Par Apostle and see if there are really 5 levels worth of abilities that you want out of it.

If you're mostly going to be buffing, the best metamagic feats for you are Extend Spell and Persistent Spell, and then probably Reach Spell.

The Dragonwrought question was more out of curiosity, so I fear I will still worry about it. 
I will look into Sacred Exorcist for the turning quality. I also like the ideas for the metamagics. Thanks.

paragnostic apostle has a really high opportunity cost for marginal abilities if you use it RAW with having to give away a good part of your gold to the paragnostic assembly.

In light of both your replies, I will definitely reconsider the Par Apostle, and probably ditch it for some other prc (or just full archivist).

Prc suggestions are very welcome.
/Yirrare

[Rebel7284]

You have a lot of options.

- You need at least Sacred Exorcist 1
- Contemplative 1 is always great.  More levels are OK too.
- Holt Warden 1 will give you domain slots which is pretty powerful especially if you take other classes that give domains.
- Dweomerkeeper is the best divine casting prestige class, but can be difficult to get into.
- Divine Oracle is alright for 2 levels for evasion or 10 levels if you're playing rocket tag at high levels.

[sirpercival]

Well, as to Dragonwrought, it turns a Kobold into a Dragon type (instead of humanoid [dragonblood]).  Such DWK's don't accrue penalties for aging, but still get bonuses, so you can be a venerable DWK and get +3 mental stats with no penalties to physical stats.

[Yirrare]

You have a lot of options.

- You need at least Sacred Exorcist 1
- Contemplative 1 is always great.  More levels are OK too.
- Holt Warden 1 will give you domain slots which is pretty powerful especially if you take other classes that give domains.
- Dweomerkeeper is the best divine casting prestige class, but can be difficult to get into.
- Divine Oracle is alright for 2 levels for evasion or 10 levels if you're playing rocket tag at high levels.

Dweomerkeeper seems really good, no doubt. The 2 skillpoint/level might hurt my dark knowledge though (or so I fear). I will also loose a caster level. I will look into this some more though.

Holt warden also seems nice. I do have to ask about domains thought: Will this mean I get all spells in the plant domain (when I reach the level to cast them) for free?

Well, as to Dragonwrought, it turns a Kobold into a Dragon type (instead of humanoid [dragonblood]).  Such DWK's don't accrue penalties for aging, but still get bonuses, so you can be a venerable DWK and get +3 mental stats with no penalties to physical stats.

Ah, that explains it quite a bit. Thank you!

[KellKheraptis]

There are PLENTY of ways to get into DK as an archivist without losing a caster level.  My fav happens to be using Planar Touchstone combined with one of the several ways of having arcane casting/achieving arcane casting.  None of which cost levels.

[Yirrare]

There are PLENTY of ways to get into DK as an archivist without losing a caster level.  My fav happens to be using Planar Touchstone combined with one of the several ways of having arcane casting/achieving arcane casting.  None of which cost levels.

I'm afraid I do not quite follow you. Could you please explain how the planar touchstone feat is used and how I would achieve arcane casting without losing castinglevels. (The only thing I have managed to come up with is by using the "practiced spellcaster" feat.)

Kindly
Yirrare

[KellKheraptis]

Magical Training = casting arcane spells with a spellbook to boot.  No loss of level, so no loss of casting progression.  Planar Touchstone gives access to a domain with the Catalogs of Enlightenment.  Such as Magic Domain.  Alternate Source Spell/Southern Magician are dicey.  The first two however get both on an archivist no problem, and once you've gotten in to DK, and taken a level of Contemplative for the Magic Domain as a class feature, you can realign to a different touchstone or a different domain at the Catalogs.

[OutlawPhilosopher]

I was very much impressed with the (divine adaptation) Anima Mage (Tome of Magic) on an archivist, though that could just be the power level of the class.
Dweomerkeeper is, indeed, very good (or totally broken, depending on what you do with supernatural spell.)
What is your DM's stance on divine scroll availability? Will you be throwing around stuff from Divine Bard/Shugenja/alternative spell source-y stuff and so on, or pretty much confined to Cleric + some Druid/Paladin/Ranger, or where in between?

[snakeman830]

For learning domain spells, you can save a bit of cash if you get them from a Divine Crusader.  They have a lower caster level for the same spells as you normally need a Cleric for.  The spell is the same level, but you could get a Shapechange scroll to copy for 2,025gp instead of 3,825gp.

[Kasz]

The Planar Touchstone has requirements, Knowledge (the planes) 8 and 250gp essentially. So it's obtainable as low as level five, usually Six as that's the level you get a feat. It's been a while but the last time we had an archivist in the group he took the feat and it took us a little while to activate. Due to the fact he needed to planeshift to the Clockwork Mechanus (the site that grants a domain).

So essentially you pick from one of the touchstone sites, which are explained in the planar handbook I think... then you'd use your knowledge of the planes (IC) to select one, then planeshift and defeat that planes' encounter. Could be skill check, could be monsters. The Clockwork Mechanus has the catalogues of enlightenment I believe, which require you to beat a random Knowledge check... so basically you have a debate with one of their 'archivists' and if you win you get to enter... then you are given a domain of your choice... the domain power is now yours until you either change touchstone location or change domain. All the spells from that domain are added to your spells known list whilst you have the touchstone (as long as you can cast them (int score etc) If your DM allows it they might be added to your 'known' permanently) You also get the ability to cast from the list three times I believe... so three bonus spell slots. Once you've used it up you can planeshift back and submit information to the catalogues and they will 'recharge' your bonus spell slots. This does take around 1d4 weeks though.

That's what I roughly remember about our Archivist taking the feat, it's a good feat in general.

I'd also like to point out if you want to buff etc, knowledge devotion is pretty awesome for giving your meleer's some extra bang for their buck... very good on two weapon fighters also.

[Yirrare]

Thank you all for the help so far, and sorry for the somewhat late responce. I had alot to read up on. 

Magical Training = casting arcane spells with a spellbook to boot.  No loss of level, so no loss of casting progression.  Planar Touchstone gives access to a domain with the Catalogs of Enlightenment.  Such as Magic Domain.  Alternate Source Spell/Southern Magician are dicey.  The first two however get both on an archivist no problem, and once you've gotten in to DK, and taken a level of Contemplative for the Magic Domain as a class feature, you can realign to a different touchstone or a different domain at the Catalogs.

Since I am rather set on playing a Gnome, magical training and southern magician are out the window. (race pre-req) Alternate Source Spell has arcane casting as pre-req, so it does not address the problem I'm afraid.
I do like the access of the magic domain by planar touchstone or contemplative though. It's nice to have the option of gaining it by a feat or prc... 

I was very much impressed with the (divine adaptation) Anima Mage (Tome of Magic) on an archivist, though that could just be the power level of the class.
Dweomerkeeper is, indeed, very good (or totally broken, depending on what you do with supernatural spell.)
What is your DM's stance on divine scroll availability? Will you be throwing around stuff from Divine Bard/Shugenja/alternative spell source-y stuff and so on, or pretty much confined to Cleric + some Druid/Paladin/Ranger, or where in between?

Thanks for the input. I don't think Anima mage is for me, as I would have to grasp the concept of vestiges. My first steps as a spellcaster can easily turn in to big leaps. 
Regarding spells I think my DM will be rather open, but I have asked to be sure. I'll update everyone here as soon as I know.

For learning domain spells, you can save a bit of cash if you get them from a Divine Crusader.  They have a lower caster level for the same spells as you normally need a Cleric for.  The spell is the same level, but you could get a Shapechange scroll to copy for 2,025gp instead of 3,825gp.

Ah, nice. I will definitely look in to that. Thanks.

*Very good explanation about the planar touchstone feat ect*

Thank you very much for the very extensive explanation. It really helped a lot. 
About the knowledge devotion, it might be outcompeted by meta-magic feats. But I will add it to the list of considered feats.


Right now, the things I am mainly considering how to achieve the following (with some thoughts):
- Magic Domain: planar touchstone, a level contemplative
- Arcane Casting: Any arcane caster class... Dread necro for the turn or rebuke aswell?
- Turn or rebuke: Dread necro or sacred exorcist. (It is to bad I remembered "blessed by Tem Et Nu" incorrectly. I thought the feat gave turn or rebuke hippopotami without needing ToR Undead.  )