[3.P] Skirmish + Pounce + full BaB = too powerful on higher levels?

[SorO_Lost]

So, you don't care about overall power, you don't care about balance, you care about "free" and you've already made up your mind, even when it's pointed out that your definition is warped at best.

What was the point of making this thread again?

+1

[RedWarlock]

I think it's an entirely valid concern. (Just by comparison, are you tweaking down spellcasters as well?) I'm not sure what could fix it, but then I don't know your balance end-goals.

[ImperatorK]

So, you don't care about overall power, you don't care about balance, you care about "free" and you've already made up your mind, even when it's pointed out that your definition is warped at best.

Maybe by your standards, but not every game has uberchargers that deal 6000 damage per hit.
I care about power if it's free.
I don't know what balance has to do with anything.
Mocking me isn't a good argument, so no wonder that you didn't change my mind. If you and Soro don't have anything new and constructive to say then just ignore this thread if it's so pointless.

I think it's an entirely valid concern. (Just by comparison, are you tweaking down spellcasters as well?)

Not really. It's not entirely about fixing every class to be tier 3. I'm only making weaker classes higher tier and consolidating classes that are essentially the same thing RP-wise. Making them tier 3 is a secondary goal. Also in my games PCs are supposed to be REAL heroes, so they are much more talented and powerful than other NPCs (so the consolidated classes are PC and very important NPC only).

I'm not sure what could fix it, but then I don't know your balance end-goals.

Banning Spirit Lion Totem.
Or limiting Skirmish to light weapons.

[SorO_Lost]

I care about power if it's free.

In case you missed the rest of this thread, Skirmish's measly, maybe, +10d6 costs several levels and a couple items, maybe even feats. On average this is +35 damage, and further fyi isn't multiplied on a charge.

Cost comparison wise, +1 Valorous Lance & Riding Boots is less than 21k and deals four times your normal damage, this can range somewhere around +10 to +800. For 27,000k, no levels or feats, you can buy +6d6 SA that'll last till just after your next level. Add another 8k and it's 7d6+2 & reroll ones for +30 on average. Even the ToB gets in on things, for 15k you can use Dancing Moongose to obtain up to an additional two attacks on anything, including AoOs. so long as your total damage per hit is above 15 it's a cheaper better damaging option.

And then, you have this notion to prevent it from stacking with Charging. Like a none-multiplied +35 is a concern when you're talking about Shock Troopering up at least another +40, which in the hands of the classless lance user is +160 damage. Hell, if you really want to get into it your average Wizard can use Bite of the Werebear for PA, Battleaxe of the Bull for IM-Bullrush, and Herorics for Shock Trooper putting "uber charger" as gold only only expense to Arcane casters.

Skirmish is the most expensive option to obtain damage, on top of feats and items to obtain less of a damage bonus as damn near any other possible method you are notably required to sink levels in a worthless class outdone by virtually any class that shares the same concept.

So yes as I said before, this is a joke of a thread. I think when you ask for advice, you should take it and as you have not taken a single thing away from this thread and instead done nothing but defend your first post. I'm with Weenog, it's over.

[ImperatorK]

and further fyi isn't multiplied on a charge.

It is by the number of attacks when you pounce.

As I said, if you don't have anything useful to say then don't say anything. You just presented that with investment a charger can deal big damage. And maybe in your game the damage from Skirmish is trivial. But note that we're not talking about your game.
The free +Xd6 Skirmish damage per hit is too much for me (if it's free), that's why I'm limiting the ability to apply it to multiple attacks without real investment.

[lans]

Would putting lion totem as an acf be approprate? Say for focus a choice between that, something for skirmisher, and mystic ranger or something

[ImperatorK]

Spirit Lion is already a very good option both for a Skirmisher and Ubercharger.
And what other ACFs would be worth to take instead of Spirit Lion?

[Jackinthegreen]

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=b3cofcunvjgqqts7s570inec31&topic=7908.0

There aren't many things trading fast movement that compare to pounce, but it seems some of them along with other tradeoffs are fairly decent.

[Aliek]

As I'm sure many already said that, you've got a pretty set opinion already. Still, just for the sake of argument, look at it this way: If, instead of hunter levels, someone took druid levels, got a fleshraker companion, cast venomfire and bite of the werebear, that'd still outdamage your hunter. And that's just a single classfeature with two spell slots used.

Still, probably too high-OP for quite many games. Well, then, why don't we have a wizard with heroics and bite of the werebear as someone said above me? Most casting classes can easily do better than that, with even less effort than chosing an ACF.

Keep in mind how they nerfed power attack on PF for the chargers, and who knows, maybe, at least for once, melees can have nice things. If you want to talk about somethng being free or not, think about how better they could be if they'd just took caster levels instead. I say leave that as is, quite a few monsters are immune to precision damage either way. And I'm one that finds it pretty fun to roll a handful of die for your damage, too.

[ImperatorK]

The Druid and Wizard invested spell slots. That's not free.
It doesn't matter how powerful it is in comparison to other things. It is free. I don't want that.
At the time that I was posting this thread I was still considering. But then I decided that for me and my games it is too much (if free). I didn't lock the thread or ask Mods to delete it, because I ws hoping for suggestions on how to deal with it. I got some. I also learned about the ranger spells, so it wasn't a complete waste. But I see that the thread outlived it's usefulness and was a partial failure. In the future I'll try to think more before I post something. I don't want to bring on myself the wrath of local optimization guru's and be called a troll, now do I?

[Halinn]

It doesn't matter how powerful it is in comparison to other things. It is free. I don't want that.

Why bother having class features at all, then?

[SorO_Lost]

It doesn't matter how powerful it is in comparison to other things. It is free. I don't want that.

Why bother having class features at all, then?

You know, this last week has been pretty bad and Moderation has really had to step up, how about cutting them a break and just let this thread die?

[Aliek]

I think I should've just let this thread wither away, but I think there's a bit more to be said still; Really, idc much if it is an attempt at trolling or something, I just believe some things are better when left clear.

If you're using PFs power attack, as it is implied by the [3.P] tag, I think it might be a bit strong for a melee, that's for sure. When the alternative is at most +18 damage, sure, +35 on average is a pretty big amount.

But it sure isn't free. If the wizard "invested" 3 spell slots on just being that awesome, you kind of "invested" a bit over 50, most likely, by opting to take this class instead of his'. But of course, that is why a wizard is a tier 1. Biggest bang for your buck around. Still, there isn't much to be said if, in an attempt to diminish the gap between casters and non-casters it is, instead, widened.

Now, don't take me wrong, it's your game, so whatever floats your boat. However, as a DM I'd much rather see melee-ing being a more viable alternative, and as a player, more interesting options is always nice.

Really, a class that has skirmish+pounce should be a good example of intra-class synergy. More classes should be like that, I'd dare say.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

I'm assuming all high level casting has been curb-stomp nerfed and the dirty handbook fixes are in place. Then you can address mundane balance.

Perhaps the OP should look at various brute force max damage builds in my build compendium. I have the max per-hit damage skirmish build and its... not particularly fearsome next to high level casting, crafting, buffing, battlefield control, or well just about anything. Though I don't show optimal examples of those other things, when you get a look at max skirmish damage and say "at level 20? That's it?" and then realize its impossible to do better - that might help.

Pounce only multiplies that by 4 for 1 weapon, 7 with the feat taxed TWF chain, 8 if you are a drain on the party buffer or 9 with ridiculously costly speed enhancements. Too bad you put all of your resources into attacking and have no will save. Your party will love you when you get dominated and kill one of them.

[SorO_Lost]

Pounce only multiplies that by 4 for 1 weapon, 7 with the feat taxed TWF chain, 8 if you are a drain on the party buffer or 9 with ridiculously costly speed enhancements. Too bad you put all of your resources into attacking and have no will save. Your party will love you when you get dominated and kill one of them.

Eh? 5k gives you a 3/day "costly speed enhancement" on top of a +2 competence bonus to Initiative.

And what does Feats have to do with your Will Save? Seriously missing something here as the only Will boosts from Feats I can think of is Combat Focus (sucks) and Iron Will (buy-able for 3k). Did Pathfinder add a +6 Will feat or something? Otherwise, just buy the +14~+19 from items and be happy.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

I was referring to without action costs. And you misunderstood the phrase with feats in it.

I was simply mentioning that skirmish pouncing alone. I've seen DPS to the exclusion of will saves too many times in play...

[SorO_Lost]

I was referring to without action costs. And you misunderstood the phrase with feats in it.

I was simply mentioning that skirmish pouncing alone. I've seen DPS to the exclusion of will saves too many times in play...

Ahh ok.

And forgetting Saves is a bad thing for any class, even worse for Mundanes as most Fort stuff you can simply snag immunity to but since you simply can't forgo your Will they are stuck dealing with it being a poor rate and a dump stat.

[Rejakor]

If you have an ubercharger chassis why are you worrying about skirmish damage what has that even got do with

If you're playing really low op, then banning ubercharging is okay, but taking away pounce makes combat boring for melee.  If you want really low op, just hand out a free move action to anyone with a BAB of 0.75/level or better so they can move and then full attack.  Or just make full attacking a standard action, as it always should have been.

Personally i've run lots of low op games and given out free pounce and full attacks as standard actions IN ADDITION to giving out one free full round of actions per 6 pts of BAB per round to melee types and it's never been an issue whatsoever and casters still dominate hard.