[3.P] Skirmish + Pounce + full BaB = too powerful on higher levels?

[ImperatorK]

I'm combining Ranger, Barbarian, Scout and Dragon Shaman into one class for my games and I call it the Hunter.
Now, I'm not sure if I should allow Spirit Lion Totem. Why? Because at higher levels, without any significant optimization, the class will be able to charge for enormous amounts of Skirmish damage and I don't like that.
Don't get me wrong, I've got nothing against a PC doing big damage if he optimizes for it. It's just that Skirmish and pounce work together way too good making charging the best option. Getting free +Xd6 damage to every attack ON TOP OF ANY OTHER DAMAGE THE PC DOES isn't what I want.

[Risada]

... I'm not sure that skirmish outdamages an ubercharger with Shocktrooper, Leap Attack and Combat Brute.

Now, full skirmish progression + all the charge goodies can be quite broken. I think this is what you should be worried about...

[ImperatorK]

That IS what I'm worried about. >.>

[Risada]

Hmm... well... you could always take the Fast movement Class feature away... since you can swap that for Pounce 

Seriously now... since it is your homebrewed class, you could put a clause somewhere that the class can't benefit from certain ACFs...

[ImperatorK]

Well, yes, that's what I'm going to do. He will still be able to get pounce, but later at 10th level and as a Rage Power, so he won't get Skirmish.
I posted this topic to get opinions from smarter people than me if they have better solutions or if I'm exaggerating.

[weenog]

It's friggin skirmish.  It's a handful of d6s that don't improve with size increases, don't improve with crits or other damage multipliers, get stopped by all the usual precision damage stoppers and don't get as much support for working around those roadblocks as sneak attack does.  Call it something to tide over low-level melee huntersr until they can assemble their charge feats, and don't worry so much about it.

If it still bothers you so much, you could cut skirmish dice in half, disallow pouncing, or maybe throw in some restrictive class feature that says its skirmish does not work while power attacking (all that wild swinging is great for hitting harder but interferes with exploiting agility advantages, or something like that).

[Risada]

Well... considering that an optimized Skirmisher will deal something around +10d6 dmg (more or less), you can compare it to an ubercharger without skirmish...

... and I have to say that an extra 35 dmg (average) per hit isn't that aggressive when you are dealing +80 damage per hit, for example... but +115 damage per hit hurts a little...

So, I'd say it's your call. If you think it's broken, put that clause. Otherwise, let the Hunter smash things 

[ImperatorK]

@ Weenog
Not allowing Spirit Lion should be enough.

Well... considering that an optimized Skirmisher will deal something around +10d6 dmg (more or less)

At 20th level? It will be more like +20d6, if not more.

you can compare it to an ubercharger without skirmish...

The thing is that with Spirit Lion the ubercharger will have the Skirmish. And unbercharger damage plus Skirmish damage is too much for me, because the Skirmish damage is free. If he would have to make some considerable investments (other than picking Spirit Lion ACF) to get that Skirmish, there would be no problem.

[Risada]

Well... considering that an optimized Skirmisher will deal something around +10d6 dmg (more or less)

At 20th level? It will be more like +20d6, if not more.

How? Lemme count (taking them all from the top of my head... I'm working):

+5d6/+4 AC from levels
+2d6/+2 AC from Improved Skirmish
+1d6 from Rogue's Vest (MIC)
+1d6 from some boots from MIC I don't recall
+2 damage from Scout's Headband (MIC)

plus a few very obscure magic items.

That's all, I believe. Is there something else I'm missing?

[zugschef]

i don't think any amount of damage dealt in melee is broken, given the many ways you can simply ignore melee.

[ImperatorK]

How? Lemme count (taking them all from the top of my head... I'm working):

+5d6/+4 AC from levels
+2d6/+2 AC from Improved Skirmish
+1d6 from Rogue's Vest (MIC)
+1d6 from some boots from MIC I don't recall
+2 damage from Scout's Headband (MIC)

plus a few very obscure magic items.

That's all, I believe. Is there something else I'm missing?

Multiply that by the number of attacks (20th level Scout has minimum 3 but probably more).

[Risada]

How? Lemme count (taking them all from the top of my head... I'm working):

+5d6/+4 AC from levels
+2d6/+2 AC from Improved Skirmish
+1d6 from Rogue's Vest (MIC)
+1d6 from some boots from MIC I don't recall
+2 damage from Scout's Headband (MIC)

plus a few very obscure magic items.

That's all, I believe. Is there something else I'm missing?

Multiply that by the number of attacks (20th level Scout has minimum 3 but probably more).

Well... I just didn't say that in that exact line.... but if you check my post back then...

Well... considering that an optimized Skirmisher will deal something around +10d6 dmg (more or less), you can compare it to an ubercharger without skirmish...

... and I have to say that an extra 35 dmg (average) per hit isn't that aggressive when you are dealing +80 damage per hit, for example... but +115 damage per hit hurts a little...

Emphasis mine.

I said it, just wasn't clear enough 

[ImperatorK]

I thought you meant "+10d6" overall, with all attacks combined. My bad.

And it's not a problem that the Skirmisher will do comparable damage to an Ubercharger. It's a problem that the Skirmishers damage is in addition to Uberchargers damage, and it's free. But only if Spirit Lion is allowed.

[Ziegander]

You think that Ubercharging is broken, your concern is Skirmish damage, and your solution is to ban Pounce. I want you to think about that for a while.

If you think that Ubercharging is broken, then you should be concerned with Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, Battlejump, Valorous Weapons, etc, and your solution should be to ban (preferably tweak, not ban) the above.

[ImperatorK]

Firstly - I'm banning Spirit Lion Totem, not pouncing.
Secondly - not because of ubercharging. I have nothing against ubercharging. I have something against getting a big amount of damage FOR FREE. Banning Spirit Lion Totem is the easiest.
Thirdly - I'm not stupid.

[Ziegander]

Firstly - I'm banning Spirit Lion Totem, not pouncing.
Secondly - not because of ubercharging. I have nothing against ubercharging. I have something against getting a big amount of damage FOR FREE. Banning Spirit Lion Totem is the easiest.
Thirdly - I'm not stupid.

Then what the fuck are you even talking about? You're not worried about ubercharging, you're not worried about Pounce, but you DO think that +5d6 damage per attack is too much at 20th level? If all of that is true, then, yes, you are really, really stupid.

[TenaciousJ]

I'd allow it all.  Any part of the damage combination being described can be eliminated with tactics and terrain, so let the character have the advantage of having *something* working for it at any given time.  If the person invests in ways to help him overcome any terrain difficulties and his teammates help him lockdown an enemy so it's not able to use any of the numerous ways to avoid a full attack, he deserves his high damage.

[kitep]

@ImperatorK

I'm a little confused here.

It seems like you're not getting rid of skirmish damage or charge damage.  After the charge, the character will get regular damage + charge damage + skirmish damage.  But without the lion totem, he just won't get it a 2nd or more times.  Unless he obtains pounce by some other means.

But sometimes (like in the OP), you talk about how you don't like them getting skirmish damage, not that you don't want them to have repeating attacks.  I've never actually looked at an ubercharger - is there something in its build that means the uberdamage only applies to the first attack, and not the 2nd and following?

[Jackinthegreen]

An ubercharger can get over 6000 damage on a full attack at level 20, without crits.  Skirmish is 10d6 per attack or so, so let's go with 6 attacks for 60d6, which turns into 210 average damage.

No, it's not overpowered even for being "free."  You're calling it free because the character gets the damage from simply moving?  Alright then, SA damage is free from the opponent being flat-footed or from someone flanking with you.  Note how SA damage can get plenty higher than 10d6 per attack.  Again, it's not overpowered at all.

I honestly have to ask if you're trolling with this.  The damage Skirmish does with a couple feats invested is similar to or even less than PA with two or three feats used.  At high optimization, PA blows Skirmish out of the water.

[LordBlades]

Firstly - I'm banning Spirit Lion Totem, not pouncing.
Secondly - not because of ubercharging. I have nothing against ubercharging. I have something against getting a big amount of damage FOR FREE. Banning Spirit Lion Totem is the easiest.
Thirdly - I'm not stupid.

As others have said, 10d6 skirmish damage is 35 on average.
An optimized ubercharger already pulls hundreds of damage per attack at level 20. So several hundred is ok, but several hundred+35 is overpowered?
Also, there are very few things that can take a level appropriate ubercharger to the face and live of the attacks connect. Some extra d6s will only make him overkill stuff harder with no practical in-game effect. A monster reduced to -200 is exactly as dead as a monster reduced to -235.