De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue

[TSS]

I take 20.

The kobold spends 40-100 hours repeatedly trying to learn about the shrine. He draws attention to himself well before he's done it 20 times. He dies before he even gets to attempt the adventure.

The Rogue moves the goalposts and then takes 10 for a total of 35. He now definitely knows there is a small or medium humanoid of [race] guarding the shrine,

The kobold is Neutral.  It decides not to take chances, full attacks the small or medium humanoid from hiding.  The small or medium humanoid, being a solar, dies in the first round.

The kobold goes to the shrine and looks for a small or medium humanoid. It doesn't see one, being as it is invisible, and wouldn't kill it in one full attack if it were visible. The Solar, if it desires can mess with the kobold with decoys and illusions if it desired, but we'll say it doesn't. The instant the kobold does anything to give itself away it dies.

And what wind indoors?

[Kethrian]

Was it stated that the solar was guarding outside?  And the solar can Control Weather, so it can make certain the winds are calm enough beforehand.
The kobold can sneak attack through 20% concealment, which the mist confers against adjacent creatures?
If the kobold does not attack the solar next turn, the solar can use Create Water to wash off the paste.

[Tubercular Ox]

The kobold goes to the shrine and looks for a small or medium humanoid. It doesn't see one, being as it is invisible, and wouldn't kill it in one full attack if it were visible. The Solar, if it desires can mess with the kobold with decoys and illusions if it desired, but we'll say it doesn't. The instant the kobold does anything to give itself away it dies.

So you're committing to there being no avorals or other bodyguards for the solar?  He's just sitting on his hands again?

[TSS]

The kobold goes to the shrine and looks for a small or medium humanoid. It doesn't see one, being as it is invisible, and wouldn't kill it in one full attack if it were visible. The Solar, if it desires can mess with the kobold with decoys and illusions if it desired, but we'll say it doesn't. The instant the kobold does anything to give itself away it dies.

So you're committing to there being no avorals or other bodyguards for the solar?  He's just sitting on his hands again?

I haven't said anything about those one way or the other. Only that it would be unaware it is up against a Solar and unaware of the location of the thing he thinks he's up against.

[Ziegander]

A Solar casts spells as a 20th level Cleric. If he's guarding a secret shrine, then he's not playing around with the "typical spells prepared," he's making sure he's got his bases covered. The interior is coated in Continual Flame so that non-magical (and low-level magic) darkness doesn't exist, he's summoning shifts of Avorals every couple of minutes to constantly Detect Magic at each entrance to the shrine, and he's got a readied action to do something nasty the instant an Avoral detects something he doesn't like. This is all pretty basic use of his resources.

[Tubercular Ox]

I haven't said anything about those one way or the other. Only that it would be unaware it is up against a Solar and unaware of the location of the thing he thinks he's up against.

If there are avorals, the kobold can see them popping in and out, and knows something is up.  It will find the Solar by taking 20 on listen checks.  The Solar doesn't have enough Move Silently to keep up.

If there are no avorals, the shrine is mysteriously unguarded.  The kobold takes 20 on spot and listen checks because it's played D&D before.  Hence, finding the solar. 

A Solar casts spells as a 20th level Cleric. If he's guarding a secret shrine, then he's not playing around with the "typical spells prepared," he's making sure he's got his bases covered. This is all pretty basic use of his resources.

Certainly, and it's already agreed that a Solar making full use of his resources could pound the rogue into the dirt.  The question is, can a stock solar do it?  So far the answer is no, since, despite TSS' assertion, the Solar does in fact die in a full attack.  The math was done a while ago.

[TSS]

Then it would know there are some bird men about. The Rogue lacks the knowledge skills to know they are angels and has no way of determining how they're getting there. Even if he realizes they are summoned creatures it could easily be an automatically resetting summon trap, or any number of other things. Regardless, I have said nothing about the presence or absence of avorals.

The kobold spends 2 minutes trying to detect things. There are several problems with this.

Who said the Solar is moving? No move = no need for Move Silently = no chance of detection.
Take 20 takes 2 minutes. He's detected and killed before that.
If he's far enough away even that won't detect the Solar. If he isn't, Kethrian has already explained how the Rogue loses instantly.

Say he makes it this far. Perhaps the Solar is too busy laughing to itself at the little guy's antics to kill him off yet. The kobold knows there's something moving in the room, but he can't see it and doesn't know even approximately where it is (for that, he has to beat the DC by a larger margin than he possibly could beat it) so he can't even attempt to throw a bomb to reveal the Solar. Well he could throw one blindly but hit or miss he gets hit with Waves of Rogue Death and that's that.

[Kethrian]

How about the Solar wards the shrine with a Symbol of Weakness, keyed to creatures which cannot be detected as good-aligned?  Kobold gets within 60' of the Symbol, it triggers, he takes 3d6 str damage.  Even with a +4 str item, he's likely to be reduced to 0 str.  And even if not, the Solar now knows a general location of the kobold and can WoE to finish reducing its str to 0.

[Tubercular Ox]

Take 20 takes 2 minutes. He's detected and killed before that.

How?

[TSS]

Cleric 20 with superior racial chassis vs kobold dependent on hiding in shadows that could very easily not exist or be made to not exist. Answer: However it wants. Glyphs and Symbols, as Kethrian has already pointed out bypass all means of concealment, even the good ones. This is one of many methods.

You also completely ignored the rest of that post.

[Tubercular Ox]

You also completely ignored the rest of that post.

Well, I have a lot of ignoring to catch up on if I'm going to keep up with you.

[Kethrian]

You also completely ignored the rest of that post.

Well, I have a lot of ignoring to catch up on if I'm going to keep up with you.

At the very least, you should address his point about Move Silently.  If the kobold can't locate the Solar, it's entire strategy crumbles.

[lans]

And what wind indoors?

The solar's wind wall?

Certainly, and it's already agreed that a Solar making full use of his resources could pound the rogue into the dirt.  The question is, can a stock solar do it?  So far the answer is no, since, despite TSS' assertion, the Solar does in fact die in a full attack.  The math was done a while ago.

No, the solar at best goes unconscious then gets healed to full by his avorals

Even if the kobold finds the solar's location, doesn't he take a 50% miss chance or did   that get negated?

[Kethrian]

The Solar hasn't used Wind Wall.  No need, since Obscuring Mist will wreck the kobold's ability to find the Solar, but not hinder the Solar any further than the kobold's hiding ability already has.  And that's if the kobold somehow manages to bypass the Symbol, which it hasn't yet.

[Ziegander]

Certainly, and it's already agreed that a Solar making full use of his resources could pound the rogue into the dirt.  The question is, can a stock solar do it?  So far the answer is no, since, despite TSS' assertion, the Solar does in fact die in a full attack.  The math was done a while ago.

While I mentioned that the Solar will not have "typical" spells prepared if he's guarding a secret shrine, everything I said in the quote below is using his stock resources.

The interior is coated in Continual Flame so that non-magical (and low-level magic) darkness doesn't exist, he's summoning shifts of Avorals every couple of minutes to constantly Detect Magic at each entrance to the shrine, and he's got a readied action to do something nasty the instant an Avoral detects something he doesn't like.

A stock Solar Angel casts Continual Flame at-will as a spell-like ability, and has no reason not to do so and every reason to cover as many squares as necessary of the interior of the shrine in it. A stock Solar Angel casts Summon Monster VII at will, and he can't patrol with Detect Magic and counter the intrusion of unwelcome guests all by himself (not a stock one anyway), so again he has every reason to call in shifts of Avorals to watch the entrances, and "something nasty" could be any number of area effect spells on his list of SLAs or in his "typical" spells list.

Again, this is really basic use of his stock abilities. This is a Solar that is basically completely unconcerned about the arrival of intruders just putting up rudimentary defenses.

[RetroGamer24]

Alarm spell sounds when kobold enters.  Door shuts trapping it inside.  Solar stands, invisible facing main door.  Door again is shut, Solar uses Wave of Exhaustion.  Kobold drops.  Solar uses destruction on kobold after coup de grace.  All other entrances either blocked or guarded.

[Kethrian]

Time to change gears: we've already proven this particular rogue cannot beat the Solar.  Can someone build one that can?

[RetroGamer24]

Goal is to occupy shine for indeterminate time.  Kobold 20 commoner.  Digs tunnel 10 feet underground from point A to under the shine.  Alarm may or may not go off.  kobold digs up and sits in corner under a box for one minute.  Kobold won encounter.  Before Meepo the kobold dies to Solar last words are "Hi Welcome!" (How is that? /sarcasm)

[Kethrian]

Fails to tunnel silently, is heard by Solar.  Fails.

[veekie]

Maybe we can expand this to any T4-5 concept vs a stock solar in the shrine. Performance comparisons would be more useful than just determining if one can beat the other in a theoretical fight.

EDIT:
Examples:
Sneak vs Solar - We got one here.
Grappler vs Solar
2H Ubercharger vs Solar
Melee Reach Controller vs Solar
Ubermount vs Solar

In this case the contest would be how well they all do, their chances of winning, losing and resources invested, presuming it is a character designed for normal play rather than anti-solar play.