De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue

[TSS]

Snake, me being stubborn or not has no point.  Let's take this into consideration.  You are entering a contest where you are needed to have everything required at the start like say a go cart race.  You come in and say "Yes I have everything" which the judge accepts.  If around half way or so you run up to the judge and say you didn't read the rule on not using a certain kind of wood, judge forgives as it is easy to mis read so allows a change.  You come back again saying you need to get something, which gives an advantage to you (however small), the judge would either ask why you didn't bring it in the first place or DQ you then and there.

Point is you showed up with a character sheet not fully done.  I can see 9 skill points but not 71.  If this were a contest you would be DQed by a fair judge.

This isn't a competition, it's a debate about a game with variable rules. Competitions are set-in-stone rules with trained judges. D&D is a game between acquaintances who have read a bunch of rules that weren't entirely thought-out and require someone to arbitrate them.

And there isn't a DM alive that'd allow you to retroactively change your character to deal with specific situations you've just encountered. You'd have to deal with it and if you survive you know what you need to do differently next time.

Go ahead, try to write items on your character sheet and switch skills around when the DM isn't looking. Dice will be thrown at you.

It could also be set to special conditions, including but not limited to alignment. Setting it to trigger on non good creatures would be a reasonable thing to do.

No, it can be set with special limitations such as only triggering on non-good creatures (which was probably used so the Solar could send its summoned buddies out the door and not worry about them and it would still hit most possible intruders).  It's worth reading all the rules on the matter.

If it were "see the symbol", then why would reading it set it off?  If you're reading it, then you definitely saw it before that.  As such, we can determine that "look at" must mean actually paying attention to it, not just see it.

As a default, a symbol of death is triggered whenever a creature does one or more of the following, as you select: looks at the rune; reads the rune; touches the rune; passes over the rune; or passes through a portal bearing the rune. Regardless of the trigger method or methods chosen, a creature more than 60 feet from a symbol of death can’t trigger it (even if it meets one or more of the triggering conditions, such as reading the rune). Once the spell is cast, a symbol of death’s triggering conditions cannot be changed.

In this case, “reading” the rune means any attempt to study it, identify it, or fathom its meaning. Throwing a cover over a symbol of death to render it inoperative triggers it if the symbol reacts to touch. You can’t use a symbol of death offensively; for instance, a touch-triggered symbol of death remains untriggered if an item bearing the symbol of death is used to touch a creature. Likewise, a symbol of death cannot be placed on a weapon and set to activate when the weapon strikes a foe.

You can also set special triggering limitations of your own. These can be as simple or elaborate as you desire. Special conditions for triggering a symbol of death can be based on a creature’s name, identity, or alignment, but otherwise must be based on observable actions or qualities. Intangibles such as level, class, Hit Dice, and hit points don’t qualify.

They're listed separately because you can choose one or more conditions. If you choose look, that's different from choosing read.

[RetroGamer24]

Sin it a challenge.  Snake knows what a stock solar has yet he didn't add in all the skill points.  I am making an anology.  Doesn't this thread say challenge?  Wouldn't both challengers bring everything to the table?  If the point of this challenge is to see if a solar can beat a rogue in some kind of shrine but the rogue leaves out things that are latered filled in when the rogue has more knowledge wouldn't that skew things in favor to the rogue?

If he can change/add skills why can't the solar change spells?  I know it is stock solar so the question is rhetorical.  Thanks.


EDIT http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/challenge  What a challenge is just in case anyone contests it.

[Halinn]

RetroGamer24, please keep in mind that the character in question was made before this was specified as the challenge. If the challenge is an optimization one of making a rogue to beat a stock solar, then the rogue should have the opportunity to build to that, rather than have a build pulled from an earlier discussion (a rogue that would have a shot at taking down most stock enemies)

[TSS]

The goal was to prove that the Rogue could take on level appropriate enemies. Snakeman selected the Solar as a specific opponent but building specifically to beat a Solar is out of line for reasons that should be obvious.

[veekie]

Could just use the 10 miracle scrolls instead.

[RetroGamer24]

@Halinn:  The rogue was made before.  It was made in a thread that was locked.  Nothing was changed when Ox brought it over for this thread.  Now scrolls are being sold skill points added in.  Come on. 

[oslecamo]

The goal was to prove that the Rogue could take on level appropriate enemies. Snakeman selected the Solar as a specific opponent but building specifically to beat a Solar is out of line for reasons that should be obvious.

Solars are CR 23. The rogue is level 20. How exactly does this counts as "level-appropriate" again?

[RetroGamer24]

@oslecamo

Snake posted the build stating that it can beat the CR 23 Solar.  Of course if we deduct the skill points and see it averages out to about 8 levels then the build is rogue 8/fighter (thug sneak attack) 4.  But that is if we are being picky.

[TSS]

The goal was to prove that the Rogue could take on level appropriate enemies. Snakeman selected the Solar as a specific opponent but building specifically to beat a Solar is out of line for reasons that should be obvious.

Solars are CR 23. The rogue is level 20. How exactly does this counts as "level-appropriate" again?

Because sometimes you fight things 1-4 levels higher than yourself or more.

Because the same person that made the Rogue selected the Solar as the Rogue's opponent.

He claimed this was because the Solar had the best Spot modifier but that isn't true. All of the CR 20 dragons would have a mid 30s modifier from 30ish HD + Wis alone and also take half normal distance penalties. We went for the Solar anyways.

[RetroGamer24]

The Titan has the exact same spot modifer as the Solar.  I, personally, think the Solar was picked due to the cleric 20.  Rogue 20 can be cleric 20 kind of thing.  Am I wrong, maybe.

[oslecamo]

The goal was to prove that the Rogue could take on level appropriate enemies. Snakeman selected the Solar as a specific opponent but building specifically to beat a Solar is out of line for reasons that should be obvious.

Solars are CR 23. The rogue is level 20. How exactly does this counts as "level-appropriate" again?

Because sometimes you fight things 1-4 levels higher than yourself or more.

When you're in a team, not adventuring solo! A challenge of the party level is suposed to drain 25% of their resources, a challenge four levels higher is a pretty tough but still doable fight, but both those assume the party has 4 players, not just 1.

On the other hand if the rogue player was the one saying he can solo the solar, well, good luck. He'll need it. But it still isn't level-apropriate in any sense of the word.

[Halinn]

The goal was to prove that the Rogue could take on level appropriate enemies. Snakeman selected the Solar as a specific opponent but building specifically to beat a Solar is out of line for reasons that should be obvious.

Solars are CR 23. The rogue is level 20. How exactly does this counts as "level-appropriate" again?

Because sometimes you fight things 1-4 levels higher than yourself or more.

Oh yes, that is definitely what could happen to a group of level 20 characters, and it would be expected to take a large part of their resources. This is a single level 20 character.

Idea: rather than sell the miracle scrolls to buy items, and instead of assigning skill points, he uses the miracle scrolls to emulate psychic reformation and ask some deity for the items he wanted instead. Could we now move on to debates about the fight, rather than the legality of making choices regarding unspent things on the character sheet?

[RetroGamer24]

When you're in a team, not adventuring solo! A challenge of the party level is suposed to drain 25% of their resources, a challenge four levels higher is a pretty tough but still doable fight, but both those assume the party has 4 players, not just 1.

On the other hand if the rogue player was the one saying he can solo the solar, well, good luck. He'll need it. But it still isn't level-apropriate in any sense of the word.

I have to  this. Snake is saying that this rogue can not only solo the Solar but can also take it down without being detected by said monster. 

[RetroGamer24]

@Halinn:  The fight has been discussed some.  The legality came abut because snake is having the rogue gather information about the shrine.  He doesn't have the skill points in it to pull off anything other then take 20 and spend a lot of time doing so which would allow the solar notice as someone of the faith would quesiton why a kobold is asking so much about one shrine, especially a neutral kobold.

Brings up a point.  Kobold is neutral, so by attacked a being of pure good wouldn't that make him evil?  If so are there any penalties for an evil character in a shrine to pure good?

[TSS]

When you're in a team, not adventuring solo! A challenge of the party level is suposed to drain 25% of their resources, a challenge four levels higher is a pretty tough but still doable fight, but both those assume the party has 4 players, not just 1.

On the other hand if the rogue player was the one saying he can solo the solar, well, good luck. He'll need it. But it still isn't level-apropriate in any sense of the word.

His claim, not mine. I would have chosen a CR 20 since that gives two different casters that would easily kill the Rogue and his low saves, 6 different dragons that all have more and better ways of detecting him and one big thing that is just better than him. He went for the Solar.

What this thread and the ones leading up to it showed is that it didn't much matter, as it was incredibly simple for the Solar or any other level appropriate enemy to beat the Rogue. If you assume a party is there, perhaps the party beats it anyways but the encounter still stopped the Rogue cold and dead.

That's why he's having to rewrite his character once again.

[TenaciousJ]

Kobold is neutral, so by attacked a being of pure good wouldn't that make him evil?

No.  Alignments don't shift like that over one action (unless Pazuzu is involved)

[ImperatorK]

Kobold is neutral, so by attacked a being of pure good wouldn't that make him evil?

Better question: Why does that even matter what alignment the kobold is?

[oslecamo]

When you're in a team, not adventuring solo! A challenge of the party level is suposed to drain 25% of their resources, a challenge four levels higher is a pretty tough but still doable fight, but both those assume the party has 4 players, not just 1.

On the other hand if the rogue player was the one saying he can solo the solar, well, good luck. He'll need it. But it still isn't level-apropriate in any sense of the word.

His claim, not mine. I would have chosen a CR 20 since that gives two different casters that would easily kill the Rogue and his low saves, 6 different dragons that all have more and better ways of detecting him and one big thing that is just better than him. He went for the Solar.

Fullcasters will be fullcasters, but the dragons are actually doable because of Hide from Dragons, a spell that completely blocks the dragon senses, and easily affordeable at 20th level (and yes I would make sure to get it if I go try to take on a dragon, regardless of class).

[TSS]

Which breaks upon attack and says absolutely nothing about the Rogue.

[Halinn]

Which breaks upon attack and says absolutely nothing about the Rogue.

It does say that the rogue can incapacitate the dragon in one attack (not necessarily kill, but render it unable to kill the rogue at the least).