Sin it a challenge. Snake knows what a stock solar has yet he didn't add in all the skill points. I am making an anology. Doesn't this thread say challenge? Wouldn't both challengers bring everything to the table? If the point of this challenge is to see if a solar can beat a rogue in some kind of shrine but the rogue leaves out things that are latered filled in when the rogue has more knowledge wouldn't that skew things in favor to the rogue?
If he can change/add skills why can't the solar change spells? I know it is stock solar so the question is rhetorical. Thanks.
EDIT http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/challenge What a challenge is just in case anyone contests it.
No. This is not a challenge.
As Sinfire said, this is a theoretical debate.
Despite what the thread title says (an honest oversight, in the grand scheme of things) this isn't a challenge as the CharOp boards would call it.
We don't follow the Mirriam-Webster definition of challenge in here because D&D is so inherently complex and ludicrously open to interpretation.
Remember the 3rd Commandment of Practical Optimization:
RAW is a myth. "This game cannot be played without interpretation and the judicious application of common sense."
A challenge has to have ground rules. A lot of them. In game, a Dungeon Master would make appropriate judgement calls as the situation arises. A proper challenge, much like a prepared module, practically requires all such judgement calls to be made ahead of time.
An actual challenge, in the vein of this thread's scenario (including fluff that would create such a situation in an actual game), would look something like this:
I'm creating a scenario to test the effectiveness of a sneak attack build against high level monsters.
The setting: Your character has been made aware of a shrine to the powers of good and been given a mission to defile said shrine. The shrine is located in the middle of a secluded glen in a large forest. It is similar in style to a mausoleum, with a domed roof standing 50 feet high at it's tallest and 40 feet in diameter inside. The building is constructed entirely of white marble, and is otherwise unremarkable. There is only one entrance, 10 feet across with no door. There are no windows, nor any other points of entry. Inside there are 8 support columns, 5 feet across, laid out in a circular pattern, each 5 feet from the interior wall, with an altar at the center. You have been given a token that is undetectable by any means of divination which will serve to defile the shrine when inside it, provided you can defeat the shrine's guardian.
The guardian is a single stock
solar, as printed in the Core Monster Manual I, using the most recent errata, making full use of all it's printed abilities to defend the shrine. Unless it you explicitly choose to make yourself known ahead of time, the solar has no idea your attack is coming.
Characters can be built with the following restrictions:
-Any official WotC sources are available, including Dragon Mag. No third party.
-builds are 28 point buy using standard WBL, and can include any classes, feats, and abilities, but your primary mode of offense must be direct damage through sneak attack. No hirelings or cohorts may be used during combat.
-Your character knows where the shrine is, the layout of the interior, and that it's guardian is a solar. No other information is readily available.
-The shrine has been in existence since before anyone can remember, so it is assumed the solar has as much time as it requires to prepare defenses to it's satisfaction. There is no time limit on completion of this mission, so your character has the same amount of time to prepare. This includes retreating from a your first attack and trying again at a later time, though the solar
will prepare for a second attack.
For the purposes of this exercise, your character is considered to have occupied and defiled the shrine if he spends at least one round inside in which the solar is not present, or is unconscious and unable to take actions.
Go.
...And that's just shooting from the hip.
Heck, I personally wouldn't even post the above and call it done. I'd suggest it and ask for further advice on what other restrictions or caveats to include based on the premise I wish to test (in this case, is sneak attack viable?).
Does that sound needlessly complicated? At first glance, sure. But that's the way it has to be. If someone comes up with a build that exploits a loophole you didn't consider when laying out your ground rules? Too bad. The best you can do is apologize for not mentioning it before and ask them what they would do had you closed that loop.
This is precisely why "Would character X beat character Y?" is never a simple question. It's why build vs build arena fights have such insanely detailed descriptions of exactly where this fight is taking place (a 100 foot square arena, made of solid obdurium, no obstructions, characters start 60 feet apart, allowed 1 full round before initiative for buffing, no other active effects, no flying higher than 500 feet, no leaving the arena, and so on to infinity). These are things people need to know for a "challenge" to mean anything. Taking the above example, if this shrine is build into a mountain instead of a forest, one could then cast earth glide and enter through the walls (though technically if the walls are marble, you could do still do this). If the shrine is built with a natural terrain floor, burrowing suddenly becomes a viable option for entry. Something as simple as the number of doors could completely change how the solar budgets available resources.
Before you accuse Snake of showing up with a "half-finished" character, you need to remember that the orignal parameters given were "Sneak Attack vs CR 20 encounters." Based on that information one can only assume there is a sneak attacker in the room with a solar, and build accordingly. He used exactly the resources necessary to ensure that a kobold in the room with the solar could effectively deal his damage. Nothing else mattered. Now suddenly there are new parameters such as a magical shrine he has to infiltrate. If you are going to make these changes to the exercise, he gets to update his sheet to deal with them.
@ TSS, though this also applies to some of the things Retro has said:
I think most of your posts would make for excellent footnotes in the "Traps to Warn Beginner's Of" thread. Specifically, they'd fall under the entry, "Be careful when attempting to apply your own specific interpretations of actions to a game that defines things almost entirely in abstract concepts."
The simplistic definitions that you see for things, especially mundane skills, can be made to work because there is a great deal about this system that the game assumes is happening all the time without the players needing to say it. Whenever you walk into a room, it's assumed your character is looking around for things of interest or that might be relevant to the current situation. This is why you are entitled to Spot checks to "notice things" as they occur no matter what they are. You don't have to specify you are watching the room for anyone who might be picking pockets to be entitled to your chance to see it happen, even across the room, or that you are double-checking for invisible creatures. Know why you can't simply move your miniature on the mat to approach someone from behind? Because there is no facing in 3.5 D&D. It's assumed that people are looking all around them, even during combat when they might be engaged with someone else. You want to sneak up behind them? Roll your Hide check. Why is every character entitled to a full 5 foot square, even if they are a pixie? Because it's assumed that your character is constantly bobbing and weaving in combat, making full use of that five feet when fighting someone. This is how you get your Dexterity bonus to armor class, and why you lose that bonus when you are denied that 5 feet.
The underlying point to this ties in to the 2nd Commandment of Practical Optimization:
"The rules don't say I can't!" is not practical optimization. "the rules are structured in such a way as to tell you what you can do--not what you can't."
When it comes to these kinds of challenges, this is inverted. You always assume something is within the scope of the challenge, unless the rules presented prohibit it. This is for the sake of practicality since in 99% of challenges it's infinitely quicker to outright state what you don't want people to do that to try and list everything they are allowed to do.
How do you know that Gather Information won't turn up anything about this shrine because nobody else knows anything about it? How do you know the solar would even know that someone is asking questions about the shrine? How do you know the solar can't be detected by listening if it "stays really, really quiet and still"?(incidentally, there's skill for that) How do you know that nobody knows the guardian is even a solar because he stays disguised as a medium humanoid the whole time? If you were the DM, it'd within your purview, and indeed you'd be expected, to adjudicate such things as your player asks about them. You aren't the DM. The person who wrote the rules of the challenge, for all intents and purposes, is the DM. What you think or how you feel about a course of action means dick when trying to make any claim of objectivity. These challenges inherently must adhere to a higher level of RAW than a typical game likely will ever see because there is no DM to make the tough, on-the-fly, judgement calls.
There's nothing wrong with arguing a point, but the fact is that everyone interprets things differently and you need to be able to distinguish your interpretation of what a rule says from what the printed rule actually says. So you'd better make damn sure the rules specifically back up your claim, to the point of being ready to quote url's and page numbers, if you don't want to come off looking like an ass.
