De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue

[snakeman830]

So you're going to take a -20 to hide and move silently from running.  Seems like the Solar's going to hear you, at the very least.  And if you do manage to get your surprise round, you'll only have a standard action, not a full-attack, thereby applying another -20 to your hide, which is plenty for the Solar to also spot you.  Game over.

You...do realize that even with a -20 penalty, he still auto-beats the Solar?

He gives up the surprise round.  Since the Solar still doesn't know he's there, he's still safe, even if he loses initiative.  He full attacks and downs the Solar on his first actual turn of combat (he's not moving, so attacking is the only penalty he's taking to Hide).

Geeze, it's like I haven't explained this all twenty times before.  Read the damn thread.

The whole "shrine scenario"  still gives the Kobold a decent chance.  It's only a chance the Angel has Fortification armor and the Kobold would, after realizing he couldn't teleport past the door, search it for traps, probably locate the Symbol, and disable it.

If the Angel has fortification armor, then yes, the Kobold's chance at victory is slim (though still present).  If it didn't get that rolled for it, however...

[Zionpopsickle]

People seem to be confusing 'the rogue can kill the solar 100% of the time in any circumstances' and 'the rogue is a serious threat to an above-average CR encounter, thus proving that the hidey-stabbey archetype is useful even at higher levels'.  The rogue isn't supposed to kill/defeat the solar 100% of the time.  He's supposed to do it 50% of the time.  That's how the CR system works.

If the rogue could manage that, I'd agree.  But this rogue can't.

Him and three buddies?  They are definitely supposed to defeat it most of the time.  i.e. a 20th level adventuring party.

Agreed.  But he's alone in this scenario.

As for the people going 'hurrr it's unfair the rogue gets the drop on the solar' well uh holy shit guys, he's a rogue.  He snuck up on someone.  GET OVER IT.

I don't disagree that the rogue can sneak up on the Solar, in the right circumstances, but if the Solar is supposed to be defending a location from intrusion, then he should have all his available resources to put toward that goal, including whatever treasure he is supposed to drop, like +1 armour of heavy fortification.  Since no one arguing in favour of the rogue want to allow that, the simple flying scenario caters to their demands without having a highly intelligent creature just standing around going "Derp!" while he gets stabbed in the back repeatedly.  Care to try and show a 50% chance to win that scenario?

Before: Goalposts
After:---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->Goalposts

Again, this is the informal fallacy of shifting the goalposts.  The argument has to have some reasonable constraints put upon it, otherwise it is too easy to wander into the land of high-op where Commoner 20 can defeat most tier 3 or lower PCs and a level 1 kobold paladin is the omnipotent ruler of the multiverse.  The constraints upon this were a stock solar guarding some generic McGuffin.  So its Solar #34321 guarding Pelor's Pez dispenser collection.  Why?  Maybe the Solar spilled Pelor's lunchbox.  Now we just have to ask, "are these constraints reasonable?"  And they probably are.  Many DMs use stock monsters because hey, there are all the stats for the monster right in the book, no muss, no fuss.  And monsters guard silly items all the time, its like the 2nd highest source of monster employment outside of wandering in the woods waiting for PCs.

In this entirely reasonable situation, the Meepo (phantom thief of Pez) is making the Solar work pretty hard to defeat him, even though the challenge is stacked against Meepo because of the inherent power of the Solar.

Ketherian, my curiosity of all this is what is your horse in this race?  Because you don't seem to think SA or rogues are a trap.  I am guessing you are just arguing for the sake of completeness but the caveat that a prepared Solar can win easily has already been given away.  A prepared Solar can beat damn near anything.  It doesn't prove much to prove that a Tier 1 caster can defeat an enemy. 

[Kethrian]

You...do realize that even with a -20 penalty, he still auto-beats the Solar?

-20 to move silently puts him to a mere +22, 10 under the Solar's listen.  He's heard.

-20 to hide from moving, plus -20 for sniping.  -40.  He hides at +24 after the attack, 8 below the Solar's spot.

He gives up the surprise round.  Since the Solar still doesn't know he's there, he's still safe, even if he loses initiative.  He full attacks and downs the Solar on his first actual turn of combat (he's not moving, so attacking is the only penalty he's taking to Hide).

If he doesn't initiate the fight when he catches up to the Solar, the Solar will have flown off another 150' before the rogue can full attack.  He could spend the surprise round trying to catch up, but he's only going to move a mere 40', due to having a single move action that round.  Nope, still fails.

Geeze, it's like I haven't explained this all twenty times before.  Read the damn thread.

I have.  However, you have not given an explanation that works within the rules.

The whole "shrine scenario"  still gives the Kobold a decent chance.  It's only a chance the Angel has Fortification armor and the Kobold would, after realizing he couldn't teleport past the door, search it for traps, probably locate the Symbol, and disable it.

In that case, he has to look at the symbol to find and disarm it.  Whoops!  It got triggered!

If the Angel has fortification armor, then yes, the Kobold's chance at victory is slim (though still present).  If it didn't get that rolled for it, however...

Then I guess he'll just have to Miracle for one.  Oh hey, that explains how it's in his treasure!

Ketherian, my curiosity of all this is what is your horse in this race?  Because you don't seem to think SA or rogues are a trap.  I am guessing you are just arguing for the sake of completeness but the caveat that a prepared Solar can win easily has already been given away.  A prepared Solar can beat damn near anything.  It doesn't prove much to prove that a Tier 1 caster can defeat an enemy. 

Good question.  I guess I'm really just trying to argue the Solar's side of the equation until someone can come up with a reasonably plausible explanation for how the rogue could win without resorting to arbitrarily hamstringing the Solar in some way.  If someone could do that, I'd be perfectly willing to accept it and acknowledge their skill at figuring it out.

[snakeman830]

34 Move Silently result (always takes 12), meaning the Solar has to roll a 2 or higher, so yes, most likely, it would hear the Kobold (still modified by distance, though, so then again, might not, considering how far behind the Solar the Kobold is for most of the chase.  Kiting is simple enough, given a slight movespeed advantage.  It would take time, but stealth usually does.  Even if the Solar does hear the Kobold, it is not enough to deny sneak attacks.

And the Kobold isn't moving once he starts attacking, he's hovering, so once again, there is only a -20 penalty, not a -40.  Get the facts straight.

He wouldn't initiate the fight after catching up, he'd initiate it after gaining a decent lead (enough to keep the angel within sneak attack range after it moves).

Kobold has Tactile Trapsmith, so if the symbol is set to "look at", he's fine.  If it was set to "touch", then it's pretty damn unreliable given it's role/position.

Every tactic I have given has been well within the rules and the Kobold's capability.

[Zionpopsickle]

Ketherian, my curiosity of all this is what is your horse in this race?  Because you don't seem to think SA or rogues are a trap.  I am guessing you are just arguing for the sake of completeness but the caveat that a prepared Solar can win easily has already been given away.  A prepared Solar can beat damn near anything.  It doesn't prove much to prove that a Tier 1 caster can defeat an enemy. 

Good question.  I guess I'm really just trying to argue the Solar's side of the equation until someone can come up with a reasonably plausible explanation for how the rogue could win without resorting to arbitrarily hamstringing the Solar in some way.  If someone could do that, I'd be perfectly willing to accept it and acknowledge their skill at figuring it out.
[/quote]

I don't think that using the Solar as stock without prior preparation is an unnecessarily arbitrary restriction upon it.  A lot of DMs throw out stock monsters without any real pre-prepping.  So, a random stock Solar guarding some generic location with a dumb McGuffin is a rather normal situation in a non-high-Op game.

If the Solar is well prepared it should easily win this challenge.  If the Solar is well prepared it can also beat a warblade, a binder, a bard, or pretty much any Tier 3 or below.  Proving that the Solar is good and can easily kill PCs if it is prepared is trivial and doesn't really add much, it can be taken as a given that a prepared Tier 1 equivalent can beat damn near anything. 

For the most part, the Solar winning doesn't disprove that the rogue can be viable.  The fact that the rogue can force the Solar to expend suitable resources to beat an enemy 3 tiers below it does however prove that the rogue as an archetype is viable even at higher levels.

[Kethrian]

34 Move Silently result (always takes 12), meaning the Solar has to roll a 2 or higher, so yes, most likely, it would hear the Kobold (still modified by distance, though, so then again, might not, considering how far behind the Solar the Kobold is for most of the chase.  Kiting is simple enough, given a slight movespeed advantage.  It would take time, but stealth usually does.  Even if the Solar does hear the Kobold, it is not enough to deny sneak attacks.

As explained earlier, if the Solar can pinpoint the rogue's location, WoE will auto-win.  So no, it doesn't deny the sneak attack, but it does allow the Solar the chance to take the rogue out before the full-round sneak attack.

And the Kobold isn't moving once he starts attacking, he's hovering, so once again, there is only a -20 penalty, not a -40.  Get the facts straight.

He wouldn't initiate the fight after catching up, he'd initiate it after gaining a decent lead (enough to keep the angel within sneak attack range after it moves).

So his entire strategy relies on the Solar rolling several very low listen checks as he flies past at a rate of 10' per round (the difference in their speeds)?  That is nowhere near a 50% chance to win.

Now, the kobold could spend an hour or so taking a very wide arc around the Solar, hoping that its flight path doesn't ever change, to set up the ambush without passing close enough for the Solar to hear.  A single turn of even a few degrees can completely ruin the ambush.

And even if he does set it up successfully, that Solar is still moving 150' just in the surprise round, let alone if he wins initiative and is gone before the rogue could act.

Kobold has Tactile Trapsmith, so if the symbol is set to "look at", he's fine.  If it was set to "touch", then it's pretty damn unreliable given it's role/position.

Since a Symbol can have one or more triggers, it could have "look at", "touch", and "pass through" all set to trigger it.  Boom.

[RetroGamer24]

If I may.  That is why in one of my set ups we have an Alarm spell set just inside the door of the shrine.  Rogue enters by any means and the Solar, invisible, knows by way of a mental ping.  Already facing the door/entrance the Solar uses WoE and the rogue drops. 

[snakeman830]

34 Move Silently result (always takes 12), meaning the Solar has to roll a 2 or higher, so yes, most likely, it would hear the Kobold (still modified by distance, though, so then again, might not, considering how far behind the Solar the Kobold is for most of the chase.  Kiting is simple enough, given a slight movespeed advantage.  It would take time, but stealth usually does.  Even if the Solar does hear the Kobold, it is not enough to deny sneak attacks.

As explained earlier, if the Solar can pinpoint the rogue's location, WoE will auto-win.  So no, it doesn't deny the sneak attack, but it does allow the Solar the chance to take the rogue out before the full-round sneak attack.

Pinpointint location requires beating the DC by 20, so the Solar has no chance of doing that.  Even so, Kobold is the more likely of the two to win initiative (+11 vs. +9).

And the Kobold isn't moving once he starts attacking, he's hovering, so once again, there is only a -20 penalty, not a -40.  Get the facts straight.

He wouldn't initiate the fight after catching up, he'd initiate it after gaining a decent lead (enough to keep the angel within sneak attack range after it moves).

So his entire strategy relies on the Solar rolling several very low listen checks as he flies past at a rate of 10' per round (the difference in their speeds)?  That is nowhere near a 50% chance to win.

Now, the kobold could spend an hour or so taking a very wide arc around the Solar, hoping that its flight path doesn't ever change, to set up the ambush without passing close enough for the Solar to hear.  A single turn of even a few degrees can completely ruin the ambush.

And even if he does set it up successfully, that Solar is still moving 150' just in the surprise round, let alone if he wins initiative and is gone before the rogue could act.

Well, the Solar, being unaware of his attacker, wouldn't get to act in any surprise round, so that's not an issue.

The Kobold may not have a 50% chance to win if it kites around to get a good position due to the Solar possibly changing course (which would usually indicate one of three things: it has a patrol route which could then be tracked and ambushed, something else got its attention which is good for the Kobold, or it's really damn bored, in which case what is it doing on the material?).  However, the Solar has a 0% chance to win if this is the case due to never even knowing something was after it.

Kobold has Tactile Trapsmith, so if the symbol is set to "look at", he's fine.  If it was set to "touch", then it's pretty damn unreliable given it's role/position.

Since a Symbol can have one or more triggers, it could have "look at", "touch", and "pass through" all set to trigger it.  Boom.

Fair point.  Makes things more interesting, but not impossible, since the Solar is inside the shrine and wouldn't notice it being set off (symbol would have to be outside to be effective, outside of LoS for those inside the shrine).  The Kobold even with exhaustion penalties accounted for remains undetected (hasn't entered the shrine yet, so no alarm would be set off) and can use a scroll of Miracle to get out of harm's way/heal the Str damage.

[RetroGamer24]

Snake that is wrong.  Your rogue has a str of 6 SoW is 3d6 so average about 11-12.  The rogue drops to zero and is helpless.  Lemme say that again HELPLESS.  It can't do anything.

EDIT:  Dude leave the damn sheet alone.  You keep adding things as anyone shows a counter point.  The rogue is looking more like being set up to take out the Solar then the original intent of being handle any CR 20+ things. (The ten miracle scrolls)

[Kethrian]

Ah, one more point to bring up.  Your rogue cannot Hide in Plain Sight, due to being outdoors.  Sunlight and all.

[Kethrian]

I'll add that rogues do not suck.  They are vastly improved with a team, due to having a flanking partner which greatly increases their sneak attack opportunities, among other more generic benefits, regardless of what other members make up the team.

There are cheap magic items which (seen in Snakeman's build) grant them the ability to sneak attack undead and constructs, the most prevalent of the "immune" creature types.  Gauntlets of Ghost Fighting or similar items cover the need to deal with incorporeals, especially when coupled with a See Invisibility item.  Those are all things a rogue could reasonably have by lv 7.

At the same time, it's going to take serious work on set-up for the rogue to beat a Solar.  That rogue will likely have to expend far more resources than the Solar, but that should be expected.  I have not once disagreed that in the first scenario, the Solar will indeed have to work hard to protect the shrine.  Though I would like to point out, none of the prep work I've devised was specific against rogues.  In the second scenario, Snakeman could indeed win, if he can find a way to have his rogue hide in midair in daylight, without using something that True Seeing can breach or will give away the ambush.

Oh, and about the pin-pointing the rogue's location with a listen check, I was referring to just being well enough to hit with a 60' cone.

[Mooncrow]

Out of curiosity, why did we decide that WoE would be the default spell of choice when the rogue's general direction is discovered?  I'm not saying it's terrible choice, but given that it's one of the few options on the solar's list that basically auto-ends the rogue, it bears a little more examination than "obviously, the solar would cast WoE".  WoE just doesn't seem like it's broadly useful enough to be the go-to spell here, especially as a 3/day - WoF, since it's at-will, while the solar tries to pin-point the location of the unknown intruder seems like a more likely move. 

Idk, WoE seems more like an "if" condition to me - if the solar chooses that option, then yes the rogue loses, but it doesn't strike me as the only obvious choice in the situation. 

re: Daylight - Hrm , I can't find that link to your build, snake - I figured it would have a Dark Lantern, though.  Does it not?

[Kethrian]

I went with it because a -6 to dex is useful in reducing the hide and move silently rolls, plus the target can't flee or fight nearly as well.

As for the Lantern, a big splotch of shadowy darkness hanging in midair would be a huge warning to the Solar.

[Mooncrow]

I went with it because a -6 to dex is useful in reducing the hide and move silently rolls, plus the target can't flee or fight nearly as well.

Perhaps.  It's still seems a far cry from the 'only obvious choice'.

As for the Lantern, a big splotch of shadowy darkness hanging in midair would be a huge warning to the Solar.

Says which rule, exactly?  Or heck, where in the item description does it say that the lantern creates "a big splotch of shadowy darkness hanging in midair"?

There's no mention that the effect is obvious, or even that it's noticeable to others at all.  Skills have enough trouble being useful without adding additional restrictions on them that aren't in the book

edit: and I do want to add a little about the shifting goalposts in the thread - Keth, did you read the OP to see what the actual discussion was supposed to be about?  The orginal idea was "how much do we have to hamstring the stock solar before the rogue can beat it?"  If the answer is "don't let it change spells or pick out its own gear", and maybe taking a few spells off its list, then that seems pretty good.

[Kethrian]

Perhaps.  It's still seems a far cry from the 'only obvious choice'.

I never said the WoE was the only obvious choice.  I also suggested Obscuring Mist, as a more defensive option that would completely shut down the rogue.  It just wouldn't help the Solar catch him.

Says which rule, exactly?  Or heck, where in the item description does it say that the lantern creates "a big splotch of shadowy darkness hanging in midair"?

Um, how about the part where it sheds shadowy illumination within 60'?  It would have to be reducing light passing through the area from all directions, which would be visible from any angle then.  If it didn't, then the rogue would still be in sunlight.

There's no mention that the effect is obvious, or even that it's noticeable to others at all.  Skills have enough trouble being useful without adding additional restrictions on them that aren't in the book

It specifically states it modifies the ambient light.  That is a visible effect.  Can you show me where the shadowy light doesn't interfere with sight?

edit: and I do want to add a little about the shifting goalposts in the thread - Keth, did you read the OP to see what the actual discussion was supposed to be about?  The orginal idea was "how much do we have to hamstring the stock solar before the rogue can beat it?"  If the answer is "don't let it change spells or pick out its own gear", and maybe taking a few spells off its list, then that seems pretty good.

Yes I did.  It was quickly changed to 'stock' Solar because the original argument would have drastically complicated the issue.  In fact, it would likely be easier to just find every creature in the MM that the rogue stands a decent chance at beating one-on-one.

[Zionpopsickle]

Perhaps.  It's still seems a far cry from the 'only obvious choice'.

I never said the WoE was the only obvious choice.  I also suggested Obscuring Mist, as a more defensive option that would completely shut down the rogue.  It just wouldn't help the Solar catch him.

Says which rule, exactly?  Or heck, where in the item description does it say that the lantern creates "a big splotch of shadowy darkness hanging in midair"?

Um, how about the part where it sheds shadowy illumination within 60'?  It would have to be reducing light passing through the area from all directions, which would be visible from any angle then.  If it didn't, then the rogue would still be in sunlight.

There's no mention that the effect is obvious, or even that it's noticeable to others at all.  Skills have enough trouble being useful without adding additional restrictions on them that aren't in the book

It specifically states it modifies the ambient light.  That is a visible effect.  Can you show me where the shadowy light doesn't interfere with sight?

edit: and I do want to add a little about the shifting goalposts in the thread - Keth, did you read the OP to see what the actual discussion was supposed to be about?  The orginal idea was "how much do we have to hamstring the stock solar before the rogue can beat it?"  If the answer is "don't let it change spells or pick out its own gear", and maybe taking a few spells off its list, then that seems pretty good.

Yes I did.  It was quickly changed to 'stock' Solar because the original argument would have drastically complicated the issue.  In fact, it would likely be easier to just find every creature in the MM that the rogue stands a decent chance at beating one-on-one.

Shadowy Illumination came up in a game I played years ago and unless we missed something obvious (which could be) it comes down to one of those situations were the mechanics of the rules intersect with reality at an odd angle.  For shadowy illumination to exist ambient light must be modified, as you said, and could probably be modeled by an area of increased opacity.  The problem is how the edges of the area are defined.  If they are well-defined (sharp edges) then the effect will be obvious.  If the definition of the edge is more tenuous (there is some type of short range fall off) then the opacity increase could appear natural (like say a cloud blocking out the sun, fog, or thick dust).  Now, given the intelligence and wisdom scores of the Solar, it can probably deduce that a natural phenomena isn't forming said area unless conditions are favorable for such things (like a dusty plain, cloudy day, early morning, etc.) but again IIRC it is one of those odd DM call areas of how noticeable said shadowy illumination area is.

That being said, I think the real thing to draw from this thread in general is that 'the rogue archetype' aka hide and hit hard, is dangerous to nearly any monster because of the ease by which one can render themselves imperceptible and the vulnerability of most creatures (including PCs) to surprise attacks.  The rogue class however is rather underpowered because it does not have any innate spellcasting and the chassis is poor, with bad BAB advancement and a very weak good save.  The saving grace is that this is easily corrected via proper optimization and I am pretty sure that nearly any poster here could take the 'rogue archetype' and using sneak attack damage produce a character with a damn good shot of making the Solar work hard to protect Pelor's precious Pez collection.

[Kethrian]

Zion, I agree with pretty much all of that.

[Mooncrow]

Eh, fair enough - I'll grant that it's an odd intersection of the rules, but given that the lantern was made to provide shadowy illumination for the dark template, I fall firmly in the "it shouldn't auto-negate its purpose when there are no actual rules on how that would function" camp.  I will give you one counter-argument though.  If you want to insist that it would be noticeable to most people, it's still not necessarily noticeable to the solar; since he has true seeing up at all times, does he actually notice something that he auto-ignores?

Anyway, I'm out again, since I firmly believe that the discussion as a whole has been over for a long time.  It was granted by everyone involved that even the stock solar could create scenarios where he could beat any T3 or lower character no matter the optimization.  (Go, go cleric 20)  Snake (and others) showed example scenarios where the solar had a pretty good chance of not winning - so the only thing left is to quibble over what "arbitrary" means. 

And yes, pretty much agree with Zion 100% as well - I still think a ray caster would have been a much better showcase for how far you can go with SA   (granted, my answer to almost every question of "how do you make X better?" is "add spells", but that's a personal quirk^^)

[Unbeliever]

...
That being said, I think the real thing to draw from this thread in general is that 'the rogue archetype' aka hide and hit hard, is dangerous to nearly any monster because of the ease by which one can render themselves imperceptible and the vulnerability of most creatures (including PCs) to surprise attacks.  The rogue class however is rather underpowered because it does not have any innate spellcasting and the chassis is poor, with bad BAB advancement and a very weak good save.  The saving grace is that this is easily corrected via proper optimization and I am pretty sure that nearly any poster here could take the 'rogue archetype' and using sneak attack damage produce a character with a damn good shot of making the Solar work hard to protect Pelor's precious Pez collection.

+1

Edit:  I guess I should try and use the new "respect" system ...

[RetroGamer24]

Here is something funny that I thought of this morning.  Take Thug Sneak Attack Fighter to 20.  11d6 SA alone is better then rogue.  Main skills are Hide, Spot, Move Silently and UMD.  Since Spot and UMD are cross class which are easy to fix being human with adaptable learner.  Take the same magic items from snake's build add in a rogue's vest and better weapons.  Woah look I am doing as much or more then the rogue.  Herp derp I winz ze interwebs.

Stats would roughly be at starting: Str 8. Dex 15, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 13.  I am not going to work out boosts atm.  All feats sans Savvy Rogue and add in Adaptable Leaner.  Change from kobold to Human. Better melee to get more damage and the hand x-bow slightly more base damage before adding in dex and such.  Take away third eye conceal and add in the crystal mask that improves spot, maybe the torc that helps spot too and suddenly I am doing like the rogue.

So the rogue's features are either replaced by magic items, acfs from other classes, or magic in general.  This is why the rogue is a trap.  Thank you.