De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue

[Tubercular Ox]

Like I said, I was enjoying the discussion.  But let me formulate it a little before it starts up again.  I'm going to grant that sufficient system mastery and unfettered options would allow a solar to wipe the floor with the given darkstalker rogue.  My question is this:  How much would you have to remove from the Solar for it to be an even challenge for the darkstalker rogue?

Let me give a first approximation.  You must remove:
1.  Wealth and feats.  snakeman830 never made a claim beyond being able to defeat a stock monster, so I'm taking this to mean he admits that a Solar with access to wealth and/or feats can create a counter.

2.  Cleric 20 casting.  It also seems safe to assume that a tier one with sufficient system mastery is going to defeat a tier four.

3.  1/day Wish.  I'm not persuaded on this, but since a lot of arguments revolve around it, it belongs in the first approximation.

We'll call this the gimped solar.  Your optimization challenge:  Add as few things as possible to make it win over the darkstalker rogue.

Unfortunately, "few" has to be defined qualitatively rather than quantitatively.  I'm choosing to define picking the most broken spell you can find to defeat the build as "more" than even a greater number of higher level spells that aren't broken.

This is a tiered challenge.  It seems to me the obvious option is to give it heavy fortification.  Can that be bypassed?  I have no idea, my system mastery is nil.  Anyways, if that *is* the obvious option, the next tier of the challenge is this:  What can you do if you are denied heavy fortification?  If "Use Wealth" is still the answer, then the question is "How much wealth do you have to add?"  Heavy Fortification costs 36k gp.

Once that's settled, the next question is:  How many caster levels do you need?   Could a solar with Cleric 1 powers defeat this build?  3, 5, 7, 11, 16?  How would it do so?  What if you denied it divinations but gave it access to other spells? 

Caveats: 
1.  This is not intended as a discussion of whether it is "right" or "fair" to deny the solar these things, it is a theoretical challenge.
2.  I'm very new.  If there is something I'm missing that makes this challenge impossible to adjudicate, let me know gently please.

[Halinn]

I would quite like to see a discussion on whether the solar, with the stat block lifted directly from the MM could defeat the rogue (snakeman, could you link it again?). This is, of course, with the stipulation that any claim either way would have to include concrete tactics, i.e. what spells (from the standard Solar list, in the MM) are cast to what effect and so on.

[ImperatorK]

Also there should be a scenario for this encounter. Something like: The Solar was charged with guarding some kind of holy place of his god or a treasure. He can prepare default defenses against intrusion, but not specifically tailored against a sneaky kobold, because that would be unfair.

[Kajhera]

I'd like to place a bet on Waves of Exhaustion being the area spell(like) used by the solar to disable the kobold, if he's not immune somewhere I missed, but my grasp of strategy is notoriously poor compared to my grasp of mechanics.

... Particularly in the described scenario, where you have a defined area that something's getting into, and the solar can stay constantly invisible ready to hit whatever gets past his spot checks that will reveal whatever average things are there.

Defenses: Alarm spell.

[Tubercular Ox]

Sorry, should have thought of that.  The challenger: Darkstalker Rogue

The proposition: A stock solar, with stock loadout is incapable of defeating the challenger.  The solar's domains are left variable in that build, though.  I doubt it matters.

A suggestion for scenario: A small shrine, with the solar (and the battle) being held just outside.  Wooded glens are traditional, but we can use infinite featureless plain if that's preferred.  The kobold's objective is to occupy the shrine unmolested for as long as possible.  Killing the solar == infinite occupation.  Incapacitated by subdual damage == for as long as the incapacitation can remain (although honestly, once it's down, the kobold can likely keep it there indefinitely.)  Forcing the solar to retreat is an easily measured time frame.

The solar's objective, obviously, is to keep the kobold from occupying the shrine.  Again, killing or incapacitating the kobold is infinite duration.  Forcing the kobold to twiddle its thumbs is measurable.

[Tubercular Ox]

I think a permanent alarm on the shrine itself is reasonable.  Which defines the shrine as a 20' radius gazebo (hopefully that doesn't up the CR too much).  The solar is invisible.

Blanketing the area with alarms is probably too much preparation.  It implies either significant outside intervention or an alteration to the Solar's build.

[ImperatorK]

I would say that the Solar should be visible to scare of potential intruders. Remember that a Solar is an epic monster and there's not many people who are dangerous to him. And honestly, what opponents can he expect when all he's doing is defending a small shrine? Small fry. Mooks. Average robbers. And those just piss their pants when they see with whom they'll have to deal with.

[Kajhera]

I think you need remedial courses in how to be a guardian angel.

[ImperatorK]

I think not.

[Tubercular Ox]

Let's grant the solar his invisibility.  I forgot that this was already addressed:

The kobold approaches the shrine using Hide and Move Silently, takes 20 on Spot and Listen checks, which will let it detect the solar enough to torchbug paste the thing.  It is not attacking, so the -20 penalty to hide that its previous calculations were based on isn't there, meaning the Solar is even less likely to detect the kobold before the kobold detects it.

Score:  Solar, however many rounds until he's spotted (listened?).  Kobold, 0 rounds.

Which is better?  Knowing the kobold exists but being pasted, or the kobold getting first strike on the solar?

And not taking 20 on spot and listen checks before approaching the shrine isn't really reasonable on the kobold's part.  In fact, he should probably do it even if the solar is visible.

[snakeman830]

I thought honestly that this discussion was deemed over, but I will state that I have two adjustments to make on the Kobold's sheet:
1. Remove Distance from the hand crossbow (it isn't really necessary)
2. Add a +3 Feycraft dagger and 10,198gp

I admit to my oversight on Staggering Strike being melee only.  Luckily, it's a simple fix.

Since the Kobold is the only one who has a chance at locating his opponent, he will get a surprise round.  Most likely, however, he will forgo it to just make a full attack on his first turn after initiative (even if the Solar goes first, it still doesn't know it's in combat).  One full attack on average (including weighting for misses on attack rolls, but not for critical hits) deals 213 damage and the Solar only has 209 hp.  Once the Solar is down, the Kobold just sits on it stabbing it for hours on end out of boredom to keep it down (since every stab effectively adds 3 rounds to the time it's down).

Now, since the Kobold would be the one starting the fight, he will definitely wait until it is not daylight to back up his always-on concealment with hide in plain sight.  Kobolds have always been known to be shrewd and unwilling to let their opponent have any advantage they don't need to have.

[RetroGamer24]

 

Ox you made a mistake.  Koldbold enter the room.  He is taking 20 on spot.  Solar is invisbile, with his size taken into account Kolbold has to beat a 62.  Taking 20 doesn't work.  Sorry.   So no he can't do anything because he has no clue it is there.


BTW since kolbold has a non evil epic dagger it won't damage the Solar.  Before I get flamed by the likes of snake, dman, and others.  I don't have the books with me so I don't remember what feycraft fully does.  I do remember it grants weapon finesse (sp?) but I don't remember what else.  I highly doubt though it allows a full by pass to DR epic & evil or the Regeneration of Epic & Evil.  ty

[snakeman830]

Ox you made a mistake.  Koldbold enter the room.  He is taking 20 on spot.  Solar is invisbile, with his size taken into account Kolbold has to beat a 62.  Taking 20 doesn't work.  Sorry.   So no he can't do anything because he has no clue it is there.

Listen, on the other hand, says the Kobold can find it just fine, since the Solar only has a +30 mod and the Kobold has +27.  It will take a bit, but it's most definitely possible.

No, the Kobold will never see the angel to locate it, but he can still locate it with time, and he has all the time he needs since the Solar cannot say the same.

As for bypassing DR/regeneration, no, the dagger wouldn't.  Doesn't need to either, since it will have a sneak attack to punch right through it.

Adding Fortification does indeed nullify the Kobold unless he decides to be a dick and use a Miracle scroll for a Third Eye graft (Fiend Folio).  Cone-shaped AMF is just too much of a dick move, though, and I won't do that. Plus, it's definitely one-sided if one side gets to use Miracle, but not the other, so assume those Miracle scrolls aren't involved.

[Kajhera]

Let's grant the solar his invisibility.  I forgot that this was already addressed:

The kobold approaches the shrine using Hide and Move Silently, takes 20 on Spot and Listen checks, which will let it detect the solar enough to torchbug paste the thing.  It is not attacking, so the -20 penalty to hide that its previous calculations were based on isn't there, meaning the Solar is even less likely to detect the kobold before the kobold detects it.

Score:  Solar, however many rounds until he's spotted (listened?).  Kobold, 0 rounds.

Which is better?  Knowing the kobold exists but being pasted, or the kobold getting first strike on the solar?

And not taking 20 on spot and listen checks before approaching the shrine isn't really reasonable on the kobold's part.  In fact, he should probably do it even if the solar is visible.

It's more likely avorals are visible, summoned to deal with whatever else is aggressing the shrine. (Or be intimidating, as mentioned. Armies of angels can be that way.)

Not sure knowing the kobold exists but being pasted and kobold getting first strike are mutually exclusive, but if the solar does win initiative then it's better to know the kobold exists. If he can tell which direction the thrown weapon came from, possibly cooperating with avorals if this is utterly impossible to determine from where it splashed on him, he can get off the waves of exhaustion, at which point the kobold is reduced to staggering 5' as a full round action as well as suffering numerous penalties that may or may not be relevant. And, I believe, being unable to fly.

To locate and deal with the kobold after he is Exhausted is likely somewhat more leisurely.

[Kajhera]

I thought honestly that this discussion was deemed over, but I will state that I have two adjustments to make on the Kobold's sheet:
1. Remove Distance from the hand crossbow (it isn't really necessary)
2. Add a +3 Feycraft dagger and 10,198gp

I admit to my oversight on Staggering Strike being melee only.  Luckily, it's a simple fix.

Since the Kobold is the only one who has a chance at locating his opponent, he will get a surprise round.  Most likely, however, he will forgo it to just make a full attack on his first turn after initiative (even if the Solar goes first, it still doesn't know it's in combat).  One full attack on average (including weighting for misses on attack rolls, but not for critical hits) deals 213 damage and the Solar only has 209 hp.  Once the Solar is down, the Kobold just sits on it stabbing it for hours on end out of boredom to keep it down (since every stab effectively adds 3 rounds to the time it's down).

Now, since the Kobold would be the one starting the fight, he will definitely wait until it is not daylight to back up his always-on concealment with hide in plain sight.  Kobolds have always been known to be shrewd and unwilling to let their opponent have any advantage they don't need to have.

Snake, you're trying to sneak attack something with concealment, if you go the 'listen - full attack first' route. You need to negate the invisibility before sneak attacking.

[RetroGamer24]

Before I get an answer to a question I posed someone I have this to add.  Since the Solar isn't dumb there probably is a daylight cast about the room.  Probably in a few places.  Kobolds have light senativity.  Yeah they are just dazzled but is it worth mentioning.  I also don't think shadowy kobold would enter a room blanketed in daylight.

Also since there is time to prepare the Solar would have entropic shield on itself.

[Tubercular Ox]

It's more likely avorals are visible, summoned to deal with whatever else is aggressing the shrine. (Or be intimidating, as mentioned. Armies of angels can be that way.)

Adding avorals would mean admitting that the kobold wins against a stock solar.  The solar has summon monster spells, but they have a 20 round duration, and the scenario gives the kobold the advantage of surprise.  If the kobold pastes the solar and it wastes its one chance to fight back on a summon monster spell, the kobold wins.  If the solar summons monsters at any other time, the kobold can wait them out.

Before I get an answer to a question I posed someone I have this to add.  Since the Solar isn't dumb there probably is a daylight cast about the room.  Probably in a few places.  Kobolds have light senativity.  Yeah they are just dazzled but is it worth mentioning.  I also don't think shadowy kobold would enter a room blanketed in daylight.

Also since there is time to prepare the Solar would have entropic shield on itself.

Entropic shield, duration 1 min/lvl.
Daylight, duration 10 min/lvl.
Both are only on its spell list once.  The kobold can wait them out, if it's unlucky enough to arrive when they're up.

Also, the kobold has sundark goggles, and daylight does not actually hinder its hiding abilities, it's just a nifty "Hey why not?" that snakeman added on.

BTW since kolbold has a non evil epic dagger it won't damage the Solar.  Before I get flamed by the likes of snake, dman, and others.  I don't have the books with me so I don't remember what feycraft fully does.  I do remember it grants weapon finesse (sp?) but I don't remember what else.  I highly doubt though it allows a full by pass to DR epic & evil or the Regeneration of Epic & Evil.  ty

DR does not by itself prevent precision damage.  A single sneak attack will power through his DR handily.  And at some point, the kobold switches to his force crossbow, which ignores DR.

For me so far the only question is what the solar does after it's pasted and whether this actually stops the kobold, since being visible is a guaranteed lose for it.

[Kajhera]

Just to get this out of the way...

It's more likely avorals are visible, summoned to deal with whatever else is aggressing the shrine. (Or be intimidating, as mentioned. Armies of angels can be that way.)

Adding avorals would mean admitting that the kobold wins against a stock solar.  The solar has summon monster spells, but they have a 20 round duration, and the scenario gives the kobold the advantage of surprise.  If the kobold pastes the solar and it wastes its one chance to fight back on a summon monster spell, the kobold wins.  If the solar summons monsters at any other time, the kobold can wait them out.

The solar has summon monster spells, at will, with a 20 round duration, I'm pretty sure keeping some avorals around is not a complicated defensive strategy.

Daylight's fun but it only has a 200 minute duration, you'd want the one spell from Book of Exalted Deeds for the days / level light damaging to Evil Outsiders.

Edit: Exalted deeds not Exotic. Or ... somewhere else, possibly. I know I used a light effect with a days/level duration on a character with cleric casting before.

[snakeman830]

I thought honestly that this discussion was deemed over, but I will state that I have two adjustments to make on the Kobold's sheet:
1. Remove Distance from the hand crossbow (it isn't really necessary)
2. Add a +3 Feycraft dagger and 10,198gp

I admit to my oversight on Staggering Strike being melee only.  Luckily, it's a simple fix.

Since the Kobold is the only one who has a chance at locating his opponent, he will get a surprise round.  Most likely, however, he will forgo it to just make a full attack on his first turn after initiative (even if the Solar goes first, it still doesn't know it's in combat).  One full attack on average (including weighting for misses on attack rolls, but not for critical hits) deals 213 damage and the Solar only has 209 hp.  Once the Solar is down, the Kobold just sits on it stabbing it for hours on end out of boredom to keep it down (since every stab effectively adds 3 rounds to the time it's down).

Now, since the Kobold would be the one starting the fight, he will definitely wait until it is not daylight to back up his always-on concealment with hide in plain sight.  Kobolds have always been known to be shrewd and unwilling to let their opponent have any advantage they don't need to have.

Snake, you're trying to sneak attack something with concealment, if you go the 'listen - full attack first' route. You need to negate the invisibility before sneak attacking.

Good point.  All right, surprise round is "throw torch bug paste"

Now the Solar knows something is attacking it, but doesn't know where or what.  It has a turn to attempt to locate the Kobold (since leaving is shirking its duty) or buff itself against an unknown attacker.

Daylight spell: 10 minutes/level.  Just under 3-1/2 hours per cast.  Feasible, but there will be downtime if the Solar prepared any other spells of that level.
Entropic Shield: 1 minute/level.  This is not something the Solar would cast unless it was expecting trouble around that particular time.

[Kajhera]

Found it, Celestial Brilliance, 4th level cleric spell with day/level duration, basically Daylight but lasts longer and damages undead and evil outsiders.

... If anyone cared.

I posted my reaction to 'throw torch bug paste' above, basically it's hit you with a cone, possibly by triangulating from a couple more cones. Presuming the solar retains its capacity to summon monster at will and it's impossible to otherwise tell what direction the splash weapon came from.