De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue

[snakeman830]

The most relevant penalty from Exhaustion on the Kobold is the -6 Dex, which results in -3 Hide, Move Silently (Kobold still auto-wins), and attack (also -1 damage).  It still only misses on a 1 with the first two attacks, but now it's on a 4 or less with the third and a 9 or less on the 4th.

Even so, the Kobold is a little more likely to win Initiative (obviously exhaustion can only happen if he loses), since his bonus is 2 higher.

[Kajhera]

The most relevant penalty from Exhaustion on the Kobold is the -6 Dex, which results in -3 Hide, Move Silently (Kobold still auto-wins), and attack (also -1 damage).  It still only misses on a 1 with the first two attacks, but now it's on a 4 or less with the third and a 9 or less on the 4th.

I was of the thought that the (effectively -5) -6 penalty to strength was the more relevant, as it places your weight carried above your heavy load, giving you severe penalties to mobility and rendering you unable to fly (unless your flight is different).

Also there's the -6 armor check penalty and etc. but that's not quite as potent.

[lans]

  One full attack on average (including weighting for misses on attack rolls, but not for critical hits) deals 213 damage and the Solar only has 209 hp.  Once the Solar is down, the Kobold just sits on it stabbing it for hours on end out of boredom to keep it down (since every stab effectively adds 3 rounds to the time it's down).

You should add in 18 thp from its at will aid spell.
 
Solar keeps 10 avorals up to heal him up to full around, as well as 8 mephits to paste the area with glitterdust

[Kajhera]

Snake, could you clarify how you're able to pinpoint the solar's area or direction with a listen check? If I recall correctly, like scent past 5' that takes feat investment.

[snakeman830]

  One full attack on average (including weighting for misses on attack rolls, but not for critical hits) deals 213 damage and the Solar only has 209 hp.  Once the Solar is down, the Kobold just sits on it stabbing it for hours on end out of boredom to keep it down (since every stab effectively adds 3 rounds to the time it's down).

You should add in 18 thp from its at will aid spell.
 
Solar keeps 10 avorals up to heal him up to full around, as well as 8 mephits to paste the area with glitterdust

I thought this shrine was a secret?  Sounds like the Solar is lighting it up more than Vegas here.  Even so, the first Glitterdust that would hit him...doesn't (yay for Ring of Counterspells!), and hitting him in the first place is very much luck.  Kobold would easily see the Glitterdust party before getting close enough to even consider combat and plan a way around it.

Once weighted for crits, average damage is 217.26 from a Kobold full attack.  With Aid temporary hp, the Solar would usually still be up (in terrible, terrible shape), but would still have the issue of how to find its assailant, who we know could be literally anywhere within 60ft of him, but as far as he knows, could be even further.

@ Kajhera: You are, of course, correct.  I did overlook how it would hit the carrying capacity.  As for locating with Listen, he only needs a general area thanks to the Paste being a splash weapon.  Even so, chances are it would take a long time for the Kobold to locate it and pin it down.  If the Solar were moving around at all, it's entirely possible that no combat would ever take place.

[lans]

I thought this shrine was a secret?  Sounds like the Solar is lighting it up more than Vegas here.  Even so, the first Glitterdust that would hit him...doesn't (yay for Ring of Counterspells!),

The mephits use glitterdust once combat happens, ring of counterspells won't be that effective due to its activation means the enemy knows enough about where you are to throw another glitterdust.

Once weighted for crits, average damage is 217.26 from a Kobold full attack.  With Aid temporary hp, the Solar would usually still be up (in terrible, terrible shape),

Thats where team avoral comes in with 66hp worth of healing each.

but would still have the issue of how to find its assailant, who we know could be literally anywhere within 60ft of him, but as far as he knows, could be even further.

Or considering that all the arrows came from the same direction, the solar can narrow it down a little bit.

[snakeman830]

I thought this shrine was a secret?  Sounds like the Solar is lighting it up more than Vegas here.  Even so, the first Glitterdust that would hit him...doesn't (yay for Ring of Counterspells!),

The mephits use glitterdust once combat happens, ring of counterspells won't be that effective due to its activation means the enemy knows enough about where you are to throw another glitterdust.

So he's spending every round spamming Summoning, Aid, or Invisibility?  Because that's what it sounds like here.  Kobold would easily notice this and naturally assume that there is something really powerful that he can't see (since it's summoning critters for no apparent reason).  As such, he would leave, prep some more for the known summon-spamming (and countering that), then return later.  Of course, he also now has an idea of where this summon-spammer is (around the center of all the other outsiders), though he wouldn't be relying much on that info.

Most likely, he would open up with a scroll of Silent Forbiddance (Forbiddance with the Silent Spell metamagic feat, total cost: 9775 for four, 60ft shapeable cubes of permanent no summons/teleportation/plane shift).  Since the Solar is already in the area and not "entering" it, it technically is not subject to the damage portion of the spell.  He could leave for a while and come back after all the summons have disappeared (as soon as four minutes, possibly even four hours later, though he would probably be back within the day).  Then he can play with Mr. Solar.  It's a good chunk of his cash, but chances are, he'll recoup it after this (if nothing else, by swiping the bow and sword and pawning them off)

[snakeman830]

Looking at this challenge again, it's hardly even close to being fair.  The Kobold is free to pick the time of the encounter and prepare however he likes.  The Solar, on the other hand, is more or less tied to this area and has no idea what to expect.

Despite the fact the Kobold is the one coming in, this is an ambush scenario with the Kobold ambushing.  I don't see how this is going to accomplish anything.

[RetroGamer24]

Why not have the kobold use one of his miracle scrolls to just banish all outsiders from the area?  Might as well use what he has

[Tubercular Ox]

Every time the solar summons mephits, it has to give them orders to glitterdust the area if anything suspicious happens.  Possibly including special orders for a specific attack pattern.  Same goes for telling the Avorals that they are to heal it when injured.  Otherwise, they attack the enemy to the best of their ability, per the spell description. 

Does the solar have telepathy?  I missed the glaringly obvious summon monster at will, so even though I can't see it, I'm nervous.  If not, the kobold has a general idea where the solar is after the first summon in the guard routine.  It can also observe the full guard routine and know exactly when the monsters are going to poof out, *and* their exact strategy, since it's been dictated to them by the solar.  Otherwise, their strategy is "attack the monster you can't see."  So it knows the solar's orders for how the mephits are to glitterdust the area, and can stand where they aren't.  If this means standing outside a 30' range of all of them, it can still off a mephit with its regular damage, and try not to giggle as the whole crew goes nuts.

Also, if the solar does manage to hit the kobold with waves of exhaustion or other spell, its invisibility will drop, and it is a standard action to restore.  And while leaving and coming back with a forbiddance scroll is rather specific to the challenge, adding a +strength item is both a reasonable and affordable precaution for both this and other, unspecified encounters, especially since encumbrance is a known risk for low strength characters.

In short, even if we add the requirement that the kobold cannot leave and come back, he is nowhere near dead in the water yet.

[Kajhera]

I'm going to note giving orders is a free action and doesn't offer a great deal of information about the solar's location.

The fact I used the avorals at all meant I was disregarding the application of 'common sense' ideas about how the senses work in favor of how they work under the rules where you can't distinguish front from back. Wasn't planning to give them a lot of orders until something happened myself, mephit guy may have other plans.

[snakeman830]

It's more likely for the Kobold to grab an eternal wand of Bull's Strength than to grab a Str boosting item.  The enhancement bonus from the spell mostly counteracts the Exhaustion penalty and it's cheaper to boot.

[RetroGamer24]

To be as blunt as possible.  The whole thread Ox made should say this.  "As long as the Solar has no spells, cannot use it spell like abilities, and stands completely still while visible then the rogue wins."  Especially since the point is the rogue has to occupy the shrine. Well with the maxed out hide skill it did it.  The point taken on how powerful magic items and the darkstalker feat are.  Grats.


You all have all but stated wish and mircale are out, summoning help = defeat for the Solar.  Since, by mundane means, the Solar cannot spot the rogue then the rogue can sit in the shrine for as long as it pleases and encounter over.  Especially since neither party is actively hostile to one another.

[snakeman830]

In this particular encounter, Darkstalker never comes into play, actually (Solar, Avoral, and even Mephits lack Blindsense, Blindsight, scent, and tremorsense).  Besides, all 20th level characters are expected to have magic items.  If it didn't have them, it would be extremely odd.  Not so much "proving the power of magic items" (that's well-established, and none of the items are really that powerful) as proving the power of Hide/Move Silently.

That said, the shrine is protected by an Alarm spell, so as soon as the Kobold crosses the barrier, the Solar is alerted to something in the shrine.  Of course, this itself can easily be defeated with some of the 71 undistributed skill points in Disable Device and Search.

[Kajhera]

Snake, an alarm spell isn't a trap and can't be defeated that way.

[RetroGamer24]

 

Sorry read something funny somewhere else.

It is night.  Solar is invisible flying 50' above shrine in a square patrol. Kobold is able to pinpoint Solar due to good listen.  Kobold tosses bug paste (range incriment 10') I don't think he can make a 50' toss on something with total concelment but he does it anyway as this is established.  Roll for miss chance (50% minimum).  Bug paste bladder breaks in contact with something firm, ground or Solar (somehow Str 6 kobold threw a bladder of bug paste 50' in the air).  Solar now sees bug paste on ground due to nature of paste.  Darkvision shows nothing. Flys up ten more feet and looks around.  Kobold throws paste again (can pinpoint with listen).  Now out of paste and needs to roll miss chance again.  Solar now knows something is very hidden and is able to not be seen by way of darkvision nor by its own spot check.  Not being stupid Solar summons aid to scout the ground.  Kobold now has two or more things to deal with, possibly Hound Archons.  Daylight spell can be cast on items and uses as lanterns or just to illuminate the area for a short while.  Hide in Plain Sight is countered by daylight spell (it is in the description of Dark Template which I believe kobold would have activated by way of the collar).  Something fuzzy (Gleaming armor) is seen as it is not total concealment nor cover.  Concealment only grants 20% miss chance and able to hide but it can't hide due to daylight spell.

Is this series of actions valid?

[Kajhera]

... Ah, no, negating the kobold's hide in plain sight doesn't negate its natural ability to hide in concealment.

[Amechra]

Hmmm...

Why does the Kobold not have an item of See Invisibility? It seems like something he would carry around, you know, to remove something that prevents his Sneak Attacks?

[Kajhera]

Hmmm...

Why does the Kobold not have an item of See Invisibility? It seems like something he would carry around, you know, to remove something that prevents his Sneak Attacks?

For the continuous item, likely because he chose to invest his face in a Third Eye Conceal to guard against scrying and mind-affecting sensors.

As for a wand or something only Snake can say.

[RetroGamer24]

Thank you Kaj I didn't know that.  This exercise is showing me how concealment works, hide in plain sight, cover, taking 10 and 20, and limitations to spells.