De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue

[snakeman830]

Torch Bug paste definitely has its limitations and will usually work, but I agree that it should have some more reliable method of locating invisible creatures.  An eternal wand of See Invisibility is the best move (half an hour 2/day is probably sufficient) at 4,420gp.

The reason it didn't have one before was because it didn't have the cash, but since removing Distance on the hand crossbow, it does now.

And you are right on the Alarm.  Good thing I wasn't relying on that.

Remember that the Kobold can always take 12 on Hide, Spot, Move Silently,and UMD due to Skill Mastery + Savvy Rogue, so I'm not arbitrarily deciding these numbers.

[RetroGamer24]

Okay so if you removed distance, Solar is flying, you nullified invisibility, your hand x-bow range is still 30 ft.  So do you keep distance, lose the dagger and wand, or not keep distance, keep dagger and wand, but lose range to a flying enemy?

[Tubercular Ox]

The kobold can fly.  And if so far I've understood the set up, it can still hide, amusingly enough.

[snakeman830]

Okay so if you removed distance, Solar is flying, you nullified invisibility, your hand x-bow range is still 30 ft.  So do you keep distance, lose the dagger and wand, or not keep distance, keep dagger and wand, but lose range to a flying enemy?

Range increment is 30ft.  If necessary, he could shoot something 300ft away.  You also aren't limited by being within 1 range increment to sneak attack.

But, since the Kobold can fly at a speed of 40ft with perfect maneuverability, he can get up there no problem, especially since the Solar still doesn't know that it's there at all (if it had See Invisibility, it wouldn't bother with the paste).  One full attack on average will down the Solar without Aid active and only requires a little bit of luck to down it with (truthfully, if all attacks hit and do exactly average damage, the Solar is still down).

[Tonymitsu]

I have some questions about how the kobold is applying the Hide skill.  I also wasn't here for the majority of this discussion so forgive me if some of these things have been addressed before.


As I understand the Hide skill, upon successfully hiding from another creature, that creature essentially treats you as though you were invisible.  Normally hiding from someone you need some kind of concealement.  You also cannot stay hidden from someone while being directly observed, requiring you to find cover by breaking line of sight, and even then they at least are aware of where you went.

The kobold is granted concealment from his armor, and this is enough to allow him a Hide check, which he can make even if the solar is looking directly at him thanks to the Hide in Plain Sight granted by the Dark Template.  Ok, that works.


The first problem I have is that he loses his Hide in Plain Sight ability if he enters an area of bright light, or an area affected by Daylight, which is on the Solar's stock list of spells.
Will the Solar know to cast this?  Eh, maybe.  At minimum, I'd say the solar is entitled to a Knowledge (the Planes) check to entertain the possibility that his assailant is a Dark creature, which, at a +33, he can easily make without rolling.  Rolling a 12 or higher will tell him everything about Dark creatures he could want to know.
If the solar does choose to cast Daylight, then the kobold loses his ability to hide, doesn't he?  As far as I understand it, simply having concealment doesn't entitle you to a hide check from something that can see you.  You need cover.


Assuming I'm wrong, and the kobold can hide wherever he wants without issue....

Making ranged attacks while hiding is covered under the Sniping skill.  The skill is worded such that you are permitted a single ranged attack, and then allowed a move action (and a -20 penalty) to remain hidden from your target.  Furthermore, this explicitly is a move equivalent action, effectively requiring you to stay where you are as per the description of the Sniping heading in the PHB.

So the kobold's round by round tactics are to fire a single bolt, spend his move action to stay hidden, repeat.
Where exactly is all the kobold's damage coming from?

[Kajhera]

Okay so if you removed distance, Solar is flying, you nullified invisibility, your hand x-bow range is still 30 ft.  So do you keep distance, lose the dagger and wand, or not keep distance, keep dagger and wand, but lose range to a flying enemy?

Range increment is 30ft.  If necessary, he could shoot something 300ft away.  You also aren't limited by being within 1 range increment to sneak attack.

For clarification, normally you need to be within 30' to sneak attack something with a ranged attack, and Snake's build uses a feat to extend that range to 60'.

(Now stepping back so Tonymitsu's point can be addressed.)

[RetroGamer24]

I don't think the wand will break the invisibility.  Correct me if I am wrong but the wand is using See Invisiblity which is at most a 3rd level bard spell.  Now the angel has a protective aura which, among other things, grants it a lesser globe  of invulnerability.  Said globe protects the angel from spells, spell like effects, and spells from items of 3rd level or lower.  See Invisiblty falls into this catagory.

[Amechra]

If I remember correctly, Globe of Invulnerability only affects spells being cast on you.

[RetroGamer24]

Ame I give you that. Nice.

Snake.  The rogue is taking 20 on listen when he first arrive.  Solar heard the alarm so is actively listening and looking.  Taking 20 on both there.  Being invisbile and flying 60 feet up waiting for intruder to approach After summoning something to see what caused the alarm Solar sets in wait.  Taking 20 itself on both move silently and hide.  By looking at both sheets kobold doesn't beat the Solar's move silently.  If kobold decides to use wand of silence he gimps himself majorly.  Kobold doesn't know what is guarding the shine as that info was not told to it nor does it have any ranks in needed knowledges.  Solar probably has Knowledge Arcana, Religion, Nature, The Planes, and Local as it is the only other thing that fits. So this really becomes first one to make a noise.

Solar can even go to just by the entrance of the shrine keep silent and hidden.  Have an action readied for either daylight spell, a wave of exhaustion, of just summon a celestial elephant to sit blocking the way into the shrine. 

[Tubercular Ox]

The first problem I have is that he loses his Hide in Plain Sight ability if he enters an area of bright light, or an area affected by Daylight, which is on the Solar's stock list of spells.

This only prevents him from hiding again after the Solar has spotted him the first time.  As the solar can't effectively spot him ever, HiPS never really comes into play.  Furthermore, wasting a round to cast Daylight gives the kobold another full attack on the thing to down it, if by some miracle it survived the first.  Please do that.

Making ranged attacks while hiding is covered under the Sniping skill.  The skill is worded such that you are permitted a single ranged attack, and then allowed a move action (and a -20 penalty) to remain hidden from your target. 

There's a bug in the code here.  The penalty for hiding "while attacking" is the same as the penalty for sniping, -20.  And there's no action required to hide, it happens at the same time as other movement, which presumably includes the 5' step he gets after a full attack.

In short, the sniping rule does not work as intended.  If you want to argue that it does, the kobold can still down the solar in a single full attack, after which it only has to outlast the avorals and mephits.  It can selectively kill the ones that are going to poof out last, while the ones that poof out first... poof out.  Alternatively, he weathers one round of attacks (definitely possible, their stats aren't inspiring), shadow steps, hides, and waits for them all to poof out.

The avorals have no way of healing the solar, as the solar is invisible.  They have see invisibility on their ability list, but cannot cast it without orders.  They can activate true seeing as a full round action, and maintain it with concentration, but not without orders.  They can ready an action to heal the solar, but not without orders.  By the time the solar can give orders, it is too late, unless we return to the situation where the solar issues standing orders to his summoned creatures every few rounds, which the kobold can definitely overhear.  And while I tried to avoid leaning on this rule, orders that presume the most dangerous threat to the shrine is a rogue that can bypass true seeing probably represent a lack of imagination on the solar's part.  Quite frankly, that alone should eliminate the mephits from play. 

Solar heard the alarm so is actively listening and looking. 

The alarm is on the shrine.  This all happens while the kobold is outside the shrine.  The kobold maintains surprise.

[Kethrian]

The most relevant penalty from Exhaustion on the Kobold is the -6 Dex, which results in -3 Hide, Move Silently (Kobold still auto-wins), and attack (also -1 damage).  It still only misses on a 1 with the first two attacks, but now it's on a 4 or less with the third and a 9 or less on the 4th.

I was of the thought that the (effectively -5) -6 penalty to strength was the more relevant, as it places your weight carried above your heavy load, giving you severe penalties to mobility and rendering you unable to fly (unless your flight is different).

Also there's the -6 armor check penalty and etc. but that's not quite as potent.

The -6 penalty to strength is the worst.  Kobold only has 6 str, so he's penalized to 0, making him helpless.  Only specific exceptions, such as Ray of Enfeeblement, have the penalty limited to no lower than 1 str.  Even the Rules Compendium has no such clause for ability penalties.  So the kobold should definitely invest in some +str gear.

[lans]

The solar could preemptively use wall of stone/ice (SM) to narrow  down the places an enemy could be to attack him to one direction, and write orders to his summoned  creatures on on said wall.

[Kethrian]

Oh, how about the Solar just makes the shrine completely inaccessible to mundane travel?  He's got spells like Word of Recall, Etherealness, and Greater Plane Shift to grant access for anyone who should be at the shrine.  Kobold now needs magic just to get in, and that can be prepared against, such as Anticipate Teleportation.

[ImperatorK]

Haha. So much work just to keep away a lowly kobold Rogue. Solars are truly powerful opponents who hide themselves under invisibility and behind walls of stone/ice/summoned minions.

[Kethrian]

Haha. So much work just to keep away a lowly kobold Rogue. Solars are truly powerful opponents who hide themselves under invisibility and behind walls of stone/ice/summoned minions.

Oh yes, because a CR 20 foe with over 850,000gp in magic items is no threat to someone who only has a magic sword and bow 

[RetroGamer24]

@Kethrian and Ians.

The first post states that the Solar is gimped.  No Cleric 20 spells, nerfed SLA, no feats or magic items.  The first post really should say this.

"Hi Welcome!  Use a 22hd outsider whom only has skills and attributes to beat a semi optimized but fully geared rogue.  Oh and the Solar is given a task to protect something but has his wings removed, legs bound, eyes removed, and all the dieties leave scrolls of Miracle for the rogue to use, just because."

[lans]

Its at will summon monster was not something that was nerfed, my strat is legit

[Unbeliever]

Haha. So much work just to keep away a lowly kobold Rogue. Solars are truly powerful opponents who hide themselves under invisibility and behind walls of stone/ice/summoned minions.

Oh yes, because a CR 20 foe with over 850,000gp in magic items is no threat to someone who only has a magic sword and bow 

I'm not exactly sure why the OP took away all his spells, I would have just left him with whatever the list was in the Monster Manual, but whatever.

I think it does point out, though, that the conventional "melee sucks, hi welcome, herp derp!" or the equivalent though less commonly stated "rogues suck, hi welcome, herp derp!" is at least a bit overstated.  If what is one of the most obviously powerful, and overpowered monsters,* in D&D has to do some backflips to take you down, then I think you're not useless. 

[Tubercular Ox]

I'm not exactly sure why the OP took away all his spells, I would have just left him with whatever the list was in the Monster Manual, but whatever.

In the original thread (now locked), snakeman proposed a rogue to stomp a stock solar.  The opposition evolved into two points of view:  That a Cleric 20 fait accompli defeats a Rogue 20, and that a stock solar isn't a reasonable representation of an in-game solar.  So I created the gimped set up and asked how much needed to be added, ie, how many cleric levels, and/or how much wealth, to make this fight impossible.

Halinn proposed that the solar be restricted to its MM listed items and spell list, and here we are.

I have to admit this far into the argument, it looks like all he really needs to make a mess of things is Summon Monster at will, although I still think with the right strategy the kobold could just power through the solar with a surprise full attack and mock the summons as they slowly vanish.  It may require using and/or selling some of the 10 miracle scrolls the kobold has, but you could probably replace them with generally useful items (and not ones specific to this challenge).  One commenter in the previous thread said this build has very few sneak attack dice compared to what's possible with even minor optimization.  Fixing that makes powering through the solar a lot more possible.

Oh, how about the Solar just makes the shrine completely inaccessible to mundane travel? 

That would be changing the scenario, which defeats the point of the demonstration, which was that a properly built sneak attack build is an asset to a low-op party at high levels.  The kobold is actually built to be a general threat, you'll notice that it has a variety of items for getting its sneak attack off on normally immune creatures: truedeath, demolition, vinestrike, etc.

So of course, the follow up question is, how would an ubercharger handle the same scenario?  Invisible solar, patrolling guards, etc.  I'm not sure what build I could propose that would be at a similar level of optimization to the kobold.

(Oh, if you don't mind reading a locked flame war, the original thread.  Please, I beg you, before continuing that argument, re-read the OP, I tried hard to divert this into something constructive.)

[RetroGamer24]

Ox:  To me when you said "No cleric 20, no 1/day wish, no feats or wealth @ level", which is in the original post, this monster is no longer CR23.  It has dropped to like CR 18 or even lower.  You also said the summon monster @will is the Solar losing the challenge (or snake doesn't matter who).  So in a way that removed the at will.  So now the CR drops by about 2 again.  So now there is a CR 20 rogue against a CR 16 (or lower) monster.  No challenge at all for the rogue because of the gear and such.

Lemme also add that while yes you said what caster level would be need the monster itself is not, repeat, NOT a Solar because of the loss of abilities.  Some of them part of a "stock" build.  See when a monster, this is all my opinion btw, is just grabbed whole out from any monster manual it is DM trying something new or DM panic mode where the toughest thing is supposed to take care of a party that is roflstomping encounters.

The situation here is a Solar tasked to guard an area.  "Stock" Solar would not be used because this is a special encounter due to the nature of what is said.  If I was DM and made this up, against a party of four, Solar would have level appropriate gear, different spells, and maybe some skill changes.  This is either a boss challenge or a mini boss challenge not group of El 23 characters rushing a celestial place where Solars are common guards.  If the Solar is supposed to be a common guard, which is how I see something EL 23, then yes the Solar from the MM is fine because it is not supposed to be specific.  But this is one Solar guarding a special place against EL20 characters.  So yes it would have gear and other things tailors to protecting an area and not "stock" monster things.

Henceforth nerfing "stock" monster Solar, to me, doesn't make this a worthwhile challenge due to how you designed it.  Because it would summon things to aid in patrolling because it wasn't given orders otherwise and it is rather smart to do so.  Heck if this was a written scenario the rogue would have to go through a whole lot more, waste more resources, before meeting the Solar.

This "monster" is doomed to failed by way of the rules of this "exercise".  Myself, I learned how Listen works, Conceal, Hide, and a few other things due to looking them up.