De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue

[ImperatorK]

The paste, after having been thrown, isn't hidden.  Auto-success for the Solar, because he isn't freaking blind.  Kobold itself remains hidden, but is then hit with WoE, etc.

Then what's the point of the -20 penalty for attacking while hidden if the enemy auto-succeeds?

The kobold rolls his Gather Information skill of +2 to attempt to learn what is guarding the shrine.

You seem to have forgotten that the Rogue still has unused skill points. So it's more like +25. Take 10 or 20 and you're golden.

[Kethrian]

The point is that the kobold itself remains hidden and therefore immune to anything which has to target him.

[ImperatorK]

What's the range increment on that thing? Because the kobold can throw it from afar and even with a 60 ft. radius it's still not guaranteed that the Solar hits him with the SLA.

[TSS]

The -20 is to learn exact location for targeted attacks. Large scale AoEs do not need precise targeting.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/gatherInformation.htm

The Rogue moves the goalposts and then takes 10 for a total of 35. He now definitely knows there is a small or medium humanoid of [race] guarding the shrine, assuming there are not "obvious reasons why that information would be withheld". Such as a shrine so important that a super angel is on grunt duty. Since it can disguise itself full time, people don't know it's a Solar, so he doesn't either.

[Kethrian]

What's the range increment on that thing? Because the kobold can throw it from afar and even with a 60 ft. radius it's still not guaranteed that the Solar hits him with the SLA.

Edit: 10'.  Kobold doesn't have far shot, so the maximum range he can throw it from is 50'.

[ImperatorK]

The -20 is to learn exact location for targeted attacks. Large scale AoEs do not need precise targeting.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/gatherInformation.htm

The Rogue moves the goalposts and then takes 10 for a total of 35. He now definitely knows there is a small or medium humanoid of [race] guarding the shrine, assuming there are not "obvious reasons why that information would be withheld". Such as a shrine so important that a super angel is on grunt duty. Since it can disguise itself full time, people don't know it's a Solar, so he doesn't either.

I take 20.

What's the range increment on that thing? Because the kobold can throw it from afar and even with a 60 ft. radius it's still not guaranteed that the Solar hits him with the SLA.

Not sure, but if it's like any other grenade-like, it'll be 10'.  Kobold doesn't have far shot, so the maximum range he can throw it from is 50'.

Okay. I'll give you that. It's still not auto-hit by the SLA.
Also, I still don't think that you can auto-detect any projectiles that are thrown/shot at you from hiding. If you would it would be pointless to attack someone from hiding.

[Tubercular Ox]

Question: Does the kobold know what kind of guardian he's going to encounter? I think he should, because gathering info before you do something major like this is reasonable for a Rogue, especially the sneaky type.
In other words it's not unreasonable for the kobold to know the Solars strengths and weaknesses and prepare accordingly, just like the Solar can prepare for an intruder.

I'd prefer that the kobold remain generally viable.  So while bringing specifically a scroll of forbiddance to off the avorals (Is the solar still doing that?) seems against the spirit of the thing, swapping some of those miracle scrolls for, say, a more reliable way to see invisibility, and/or strength items to survive waves of exhaustion is reasonable, as invisibility and the kobold's low strength score are a rather general threat.

The Rogue moves the goalposts and then takes 10 for a total of 35. He now definitely knows there is a small or medium humanoid of [race] guarding the shrine,

The kobold is Neutral.  It decides not to take chances, full attacks the small or medium humanoid from hiding.  The small or medium humanoid, being a solar, dies in the first round.

[ImperatorK]

Kethrian, you do realize that if what you say is true then Rogues dealing SA with splash weapons are not possible? Or SA'ing from hiding for that matter?
Rogue: "Okay, I'm gonna hide and then throw that acid flask at the enemy getting big amounts of SA."
DM: "Nope, the enemy auto-detect the incoming flask. no SA. Oh, and he knows the general direction from where he was attacked."

[Kethrian]

Kethrian, you do realize that if what you say is true then Rogues dealing SA with splash weapons are not possible? Or SA'ing from hiding for that matter?
Rogue: "Okay, I'm gonna hide and then throw that acid flask at the enemy getting big amounts of SA."
DM: "Nope, the enemy auto-detect the incoming flask. no SA. Oh, and he knows the general direction from where he was attacked."

Not at all.  I'm saying that the Solar knows after the attack has been made.  He's been hit already, and is using his senses of touch (where he got hit), hearing (which direction the bag burst from when it hit) and sight (the general direction of the splatter) to determine the angle of attack.  Just because he can't see anything that way doesn't mean the threat isn't still there.

Your example would resolve with the flask (if it hits) doing SA damage, and if the target survives, it knows which direction the attack came from, but not necessarily able to see the rogue.

[Tubercular Ox]

Not at all.  I'm saying that the Solar knows after the attack has been made.  He's been hit already, and is using his senses of touch (where he got hit), hearing (which direction the bag burst from when it hit) and sight (the general direction of the splatter) to determine the angle of attack.

That sounds an awful lot like a -20 penalty to hide.

[ImperatorK]

Splash weapons can be thrown at the ground next to the enemy. The kobold throws the paste at the opposite side than he is, making the enemy look for him where he isn't. Unless the paste must be thrown directly at the enemy to be effective. But then it would be useless as a splash weapon. What's the area it affects?

[Tubercular Ox]

Splash weapons can be thrown at the ground next to the enemy. The kobold throws the paste at the opposite side than he is, making the enemy look for him where he isn't.

And that sounds like someone making a very high hide check.

[Kethrian]

Splash weapons can be thrown at the ground next to the enemy. The kobold throws the paste at the opposite side than he is, making the enemy look for him where he isn't. Unless the paste must be thrown directly at the enemy to be effective. But then it would be useless as a splash weapon. What's the area it affects?

The splatter would still travel in a pattern away from the direction it is thrown, thereby leaving an indicator to where it came from.

[Tubercular Ox]

The splatter would still travel in a pattern away from the direction it is thrown, thereby leaving an indicator to where it came from.

If only the kobold were a master of stealth, far superior to any of us, he might be able to work out a way to throw the flask and remain hidden that we might never think of ourselves.  It may involve using cleverly the many magical and mundane aids he's prepared himself with that make hiding easier.

[Kethrian]

The splatter would still travel in a pattern away from the direction it is thrown, thereby leaving an indicator to where it came from.

If only the kobold were a master of stealth, far superior to any mortal, he might be able to work out a way to throw the flask and remain hidden that we might never think of ourselves.  It may involve using cleverly the many magical and mundane aids he's prepared himself with that make hiding easier.

By that same note: if only the Solar were a divine creature with capabilities far beyond the capacity for mere mortals to comprehend that it could still manage to trace the direction a thrown object has travelled in a manner that we might never think of ourselves.

[ImperatorK]

The splatter would still travel in a pattern away from the direction it is thrown, thereby leaving an indicator to where it came from.

If only the kobold were a master of stealth, far superior to any mortal, he might be able to work out a way to throw the flask and remain hidden that we might never think of ourselves.  It may involve using cleverly the many magical and mundane aids he's prepared himself with that make hiding easier.

By that same note: if only the Solar were a divine creature with capabilities far beyond the capacity for mere mortals to comprehend that it could still manage to trace the direction a thrown object has travelled in a manner that we might never think of ourselves.

Make the Spot check.

Trying to bypass rules by using fluff is clever, but not very cool.

[Kethrian]

Alright, if I grant that the solar might not be able to determine where the attack came from, then it could easily use Obscuring Mist, thereby rendering the kobold's sneak attack worthless due to concealment of its own.  It can then further move while remaining within, to make it harder for the kobold to pinpoint its location.

[ImperatorK]

Obscuring Mist gets thwarted by a moderate wind. Lets hope that the weather is fine that day.
The kobold can still do melee SA, but I don't know how will he find the Solar. That's for someone smarter to figure out.
BTW. The Obscuring Mist is helping the kobold. The kobolds goal, IIRC, is to stay within the shrine. The longer he's there the better his score, right Tubercular? Or was that changed?

[Tubercular Ox]

Also, it assumes it doesn't go surprise round - paste - kobold wins initiative - first round - full attack - solar dies.

Although I still think the kobold should give up on the idea of having to kill 10 tarrasques in a row and just sell one of the miracle scrolls for a wand of see invisibility and some +str gear.  Or whatever.

[Kajhera]

Obscuring Mist gets thwarted by a moderate wind. Lets hope that the weather is fine that day.
The kobold can still do melee SA, but I don't know how will he find the Solar. That's for someone smarter to figure out.

Because the solar has no control over what the weather's like.

Oh, wait.