Author Topic: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue  (Read 80865 times)

Offline TSS

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Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« Reply #120 on: April 15, 2012, 09:10:13 AM »
Time to change gears: we've already proven this particular rogue cannot beat the Solar.  Can someone build one that can?

I really don't think so. No matter how good it is it is still blocked by a common immunity that the Solar can get via any number of means. While the Rogue can't touch the Solar, the Solar has plenty of means of dealing with the Rogue. It's going to be one sided regardless.

Other types of characters would likely fare a bit better, but still not win.
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Offline snakeman830

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Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« Reply #121 on: April 15, 2012, 10:21:47 PM »
71 skill points still unused, so 23 in Search, Disable Device, and Gather Information is more than reasonable.  Since Tarrasques are no longer an issue, he could, indeed, trade those scrolls for a +4 Str item, since penalties like that from Exhaustion are not uncommon.  A Belt of Battle would also be rather reasonable, since extra actions are good on literally everyone (effective, perhaps not, but everyone can make use of them).

Step 1. Kobold must be going to the shrine for some reason.  A result of 35 on his Gather Information (taking 10) will definitely alert him of a guardian, and a powerful one at that.  Exact details may possibly be fuzzy, but he'll know that whatever it is has magic and potent magic at that.

Step 2. Upon arrival, the Kobold stakes it out for a bit.  He would notice any summoned guards and would even notice them blinking out and being replaced (twice) with a simple 5 minute observation.  Thus, whatever is guarding the shrine (at this point, still directly unnoticed, though he might pick up the orders being given, since the Solar is not telepathic) is clearly capable of summoning, and very, very frequently.  Since Kobold cannot see the summoner, he would activate his eternal wand of See Invisibility for 30 minutes of seeable-Solar.

From there, it's child's play to avoid the "patrols" (Detect Magic requires 2 rounds of staring at the same spot to get any real information, and this Solar has likely dropped spells like Continual Flame all over so "presence of magic" means nothing).

Step 3. Since the Solar is still unaware of the Kobold (it literally has nothing that would allow it to detect the Kobold), the Kobold finds the (still invisible) Solar (recall the kobold can see it fine thanks to See Invisibility).  Kobold then waits until the current patrol is just about to expire (timed thanks to the 5 minutes of observation) and unloads a full volley into the Solar, downing it.  The Avoral vanishes before being able to help.

If the Solar was smart and had the summons on a much more frequent rotation (such as having two up at any given time, usually having three), then it would, indeed, be a bit trickier.  He might invest in an anti-summoning scroll (or even more likely, a Belt of Battle so he could down the closest Avoral too).  Any remaining Avorals (two more I might consider plausible) still have no idea where the attacker might be, and neither does the Solar (since it was knocked unconscious).  Now, what does the Solar do?  It has half it's normal HP remaining and has no idea where it got attacked from.  If it summons another Avoral to heal it, great!  The Kobold just burns him down again with another full attack.  He can keep this up nicely until there are no more Avorals to heal the angel, at which point he just stabs the unconscious angel over and over again for the next hour or two, at which point he has plenty of time to go through the shrine for whatever he needs (The Solar is down for a day or so, since it's effectively 16 rounds for the Solar to regenerate each single round of Kobold stabbing, then it has to heal the Str damage, which admittedly won't take it long since it has Heal prepared).

The Solar would not have Obscuring Mist as a defense unless they had already managed to detect the Kobold because that is not an at-will ability.  As such, since it only has a 20 minute duration (less dependent on wind).
« Last Edit: April 15, 2012, 10:30:28 PM by snakeman830 »
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Offline Ziegander

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Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« Reply #122 on: April 15, 2012, 10:29:22 PM »
That only works at all if the Kobold can both see and attack into the Shrine from outside of it. I don't know how likely that is...

Offline Kethrian

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Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« Reply #123 on: April 15, 2012, 10:37:08 PM »
Also, the kobold would have to get within 30' to sneak attack, so he would be downed by the Symbol of Weakness before he got close.
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Offline snakeman830

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Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« Reply #124 on: April 15, 2012, 10:39:10 PM »
Also, the kobold would have to get within 30' to sneak attack, so he would be downed by the Symbol of Weakness before he got close.
60ft, not 30.  He has Crossbow Sniper.  He out-ranges the Symbol quite nicely.

As for seeing/attacking into the shrine, it's dependent on the construction of the shrine, which so far is a complete mystery.

If the shrine is entirely enclosed(a detail he would have learned from his gather information check), then the solar could not be summoning avorals to patrol the outside.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2012, 10:42:54 PM by snakeman830 »
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Offline Kethrian

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Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« Reply #125 on: April 15, 2012, 10:43:50 PM »
Symbol has a range of 60' as well, and the Solar is likely further back than that.  Kobold still gets zapped.
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Offline snakeman830

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Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« Reply #126 on: April 15, 2012, 10:52:27 PM »
Symbol has a range of 60' as well, and the Solar is likely further back than that.  Kobold still gets zapped.
This is why maps would be necessary for challenges like this.  I'll post a strategy soon enough (that will include the Kobold learning the hard way of the symbol), but I have exams tomorrow.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2012, 10:58:12 PM by snakeman830 »
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Offline RetroGamer24

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Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« Reply #127 on: April 16, 2012, 12:00:49 AM »
Snake honestly if you came to a table with half prepared character sheet, changed it twice (feycraft dagger and wand of see invisibility) I don't think any DM would allow you to allocate the unused skill points.  It is bad manner to even think that would be okay.  I do agree on the maps as all these theories is based on a morphic land that seems to be what the poster wants it to be.  That being said I think a good grouping of us here on the board have figured the rogue dead.  Please stop dragging this on more.  Thank you.
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Offline TSS

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Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« Reply #128 on: April 16, 2012, 09:02:51 AM »
Snake honestly if you came to a table with half prepared character sheet, changed it twice (feycraft dagger and wand of see invisibility) I don't think any DM would allow you to allocate the unused skill points.  It is bad manner to even think that would be okay.  I do agree on the maps as all these theories is based on a morphic land that seems to be what the poster wants it to be.  That being said I think a good grouping of us here on the board have figured the rogue dead.  Please stop dragging this on more.  Thank you.

He's also being incredibly generous about the information he'd get. Since it can disguise itself as a small or medium humanoid it's easily possible to just stay like that. If no one knows its a Solar no Gather Information check will tell you its a Solar. The summoning could easily be an automatically resetting trap or any number of other things.
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Offline snakeman830

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Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« Reply #129 on: April 17, 2012, 10:38:06 AM »
Snake honestly if you came to a table with half prepared character sheet, changed it twice (feycraft dagger and wand of see invisibility) I don't think any DM would allow you to allocate the unused skill points.  It is bad manner to even think that would be okay.  I do agree on the maps as all these theories is based on a morphic land that seems to be what the poster wants it to be.  That being said I think a good grouping of us here on the board have figured the rogue dead.  Please stop dragging this on more.  Thank you.

He's also being incredibly generous about the information he'd get. Since it can disguise itself as a small or medium humanoid it's easily possible to just stay like that. If no one knows its a Solar no Gather Information check will tell you its a Solar. The summoning could easily be an automatically resetting trap or any number of other things.
He knows it has a guardian (which is definitely true) and that it is powerful (if it were a resetting trap summoning, I find it highly unlikely that the people would assume that and be more inclined the bird-men were coming from the guardian).

He has no idea it's a Solar from that information, just that there is indeed a guardian and that it has magic.

The sheet has been changed because the situation has been changed greatly.  Since my admitted mistake on staggering strike required a small change in equpiment (hence the dagger) and the 10 scrolls of miracle are no longer necessary (since now we all know there's no tarrasque involved), those funds have (very partially) been transferred over to more general use equipment.  If anything, the situation has become more realistic (in a real game, someone may carry around a scroll or two of Miracle, but not 10).

Now, for bypassing the symbol, that's surprisingly easy, due to the stringent activation requirements.  The kobold has no interest in any pictures in the shrine so long as there is a gaurdian still around.  As such, he won't "look at or read" the symbol, leaving the only possible activation being "passing through a portal which bears the symbol".  Which, of course, is easily bypassed by simply teleporting inside (a smart move anyway, since Kobolds especially know good trap placement).

Without changing anything on this character whatsoever, the Symbol has been rendered useless.
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Offline RetroGamer24

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Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« Reply #130 on: April 17, 2012, 11:27:32 AM »
Snake for me it is this.  I totally understand the flubbing of staggering strike so that is fine.  The change to the hand x-bow is justified.  Now the skill points are my main beef.  You left out over 70 skill points from the character sheet and this is too big of an oversight to just let go.  Someone earlier brought up the Solar wishes for an item to help increase its spot and you chimed in about using slight of hand to steal the item, which is fine but you would need to put in the skill points for it.  You are just filling in holes to cover any weakness someone brings up which, to me, is not good play.

If the Solar can't change its spells you shouldn't just fill up the skill points you left out.  While this has nohting to do with damage and such it still is saying, to me, that the character is half done and the player is doing all he can to prove himself right.  No offence at all.
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Offline TSS

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Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« Reply #131 on: April 17, 2012, 11:39:13 AM »
That assumes that people have gone in the shrine and know that. Either way you are retroactively changing things by rewriting your character to deal with the present situation. If you get 10 Miracle scrolls because you expect a horde of Tarrasques and later don't encounter those you don't get to just pick different items on the spot to replace those. You don't get to have a bunch of skill points unassigned to deal with a specific situation you had no idea was coming until it happened.

You don't get to know exactly how symbols work and how they are there simply because that's the tactic being used.
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Offline snakeman830

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Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« Reply #132 on: April 17, 2012, 11:47:30 AM »
Snake for me it is this.  I totally understand the flubbing of staggering strike so that is fine.  The change to the hand x-bow is justified.  Now the skill points are my main beef.  You left out over 70 skill points from the character sheet and this is too big of an oversight to just let go.  Someone earlier brought up the Solar wishes for an item to help increase its spot and you chimed in about using slight of hand to steal the item, which is fine but you would need to put in the skill points for it.  You are just filling in holes to cover any weakness someone brings up which, to me, is not good play.

If the Solar can't change its spells you shouldn't just fill up the skill points you left out.  While this has nohting to do with damage and such it still is saying, to me, that the character is half done and the player is doing all he can to prove himself right.  No offence at all.
Fair enough.  I'll complete those skill points (23 each in 3 skills, the remaining 2 going into Tumble where I already have 10 ranks, so no new capabilities there)

23 in Gather Information, Search, and Disable Device.  Search and Disable Device are naturals to compliment a class feature (even if it is a crappy feature) and they compliment the fact it's a freaking Kobold and he'd know a thing or two about traps.  Gather information for the assumed role as a go-getter, given the task at hand.  I will go update the sheet right now.

Of course, so far, the Kobold has only made the gold trade from Distance on the hand crossbow and still has those 10 scrolls.

Kobold may not know jack shit about Symbol spells, but he doesn't have to.  If he knows there's a guardian, why would he care to look at pictures?  Doorways are commonly trapped if anything is, so teleporting past is pretty standard avoidance of said traps, even if he could find and disable most of them.

I, as a player, however, am free to point out the limitations of Symbol spells as a defense, namely their limited triggering requirements.  The fact the Kobold doesn't meet those conditions has little to do with that fact.

EDIT: Sheet is now finalized, and the Kobold still has those 10 Miracle scrolls.  1028 gold is still available.  For refrence again, the sheet is here.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 11:58:00 AM by snakeman830 »
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Offline TSS

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Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« Reply #133 on: April 17, 2012, 11:55:51 AM »
He might not care to look at pictures. There's a difference between that and pointedly not looking at the walls and ceiling. Especially if he is trying to find something or someone. How will he do that when he refuses to look at things? Even if he does somehow know about symbols despite lacking the relevant skills entirely.
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Offline RetroGamer24

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Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« Reply #134 on: April 17, 2012, 11:56:56 AM »
Snake I just can't.  If I was a DM I wouldn't allow a new sheet by simple fact of player knowing more then when player first turned in the sheet.  This is just me.  I have drawn my own conclusions and don't have much more to say.
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Offline snakeman830

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Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« Reply #135 on: April 17, 2012, 12:00:55 PM »
He may pay attention to things that look like creatures (Symbols don't), but "look at" involves paying some attention.  Otherwise, it's just "see".

Say what you like, Retro.  At least you're civil (even if subbornly against anything that may call your preconcieved notions into question), but I don't see a real issue in this particular case.  Those 3 skills are fairly common (and definitely not optimal).  Only one (Gather Information) has come into play and I'm only assuming he learned what he would discover within a few minutes of observation anyway (that and common sense, why hire a 20th level character for just getting into a shrine if there wasn't potent protection on said shrine?)
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 12:05:12 PM by snakeman830 »
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Offline TSS

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Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« Reply #136 on: April 17, 2012, 12:22:15 PM »
Look at and see are the same thing. If it were read, that would be different. Reading is listed as a separate condition.

It could also be set to special conditions, including but not limited to alignment. Setting it to trigger on non good creatures would be a reasonable thing to do.

Even if he somehow knew how symbols worked, that doesn't mean he wouldn't set them off.

Why would a Solar be guarding a shrine when it has better things it could be doing? Probably for the same reason a level 20 is being hired to go in there. The entire situation makes no sense, but it's what people have chosen.
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Offline RetroGamer24

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Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« Reply #137 on: April 17, 2012, 12:54:08 PM »
Snake, me being stubborn or not has no point.  Let's take this into consideration.  You are entering a contest where you are needed to have everything required at the start like say a go cart race.  You come in and say "Yes I have everything" which the judge accepts.  If around half way or so you run up to the judge and say you didn't read the rule on not using a certain kind of wood, judge forgives as it is easy to mis read so allows a change.  You come back again saying you need to get something, which gives an advantage to you (however small), the judge would either ask why you didn't bring it in the first place or DQ you then and there.

Point is you showed up with a character sheet not fully done.  I can see 9 skill points but not 71.  If this were a contest you would be DQed by a fair judge. 
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Offline Sinfire Titan

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Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« Reply #138 on: April 17, 2012, 12:58:11 PM »
Snake, me being stubborn or not has no point.  Let's take this into consideration.  You are entering a contest where you are needed to have everything required at the start like say a go cart race.  You come in and say "Yes I have everything" which the judge accepts.  If around half way or so you run up to the judge and say you didn't read the rule on not using a certain kind of wood, judge forgives as it is easy to mis read so allows a change.  You come back again saying you need to get something, which gives an advantage to you (however small), the judge would either ask why you didn't bring it in the first place or DQ you then and there.

Point is you showed up with a character sheet not fully done.  I can see 9 skill points but not 71.  If this were a contest you would be DQed by a fair judge.

This isn't a competition, it's a debate about a game with variable rules. Competitions are set-in-stone rules with trained judges. D&D is a game between acquaintances who have read a bunch of rules that weren't entirely thought-out and require someone to arbitrate them.
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Offline snakeman830

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Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« Reply #139 on: April 17, 2012, 01:07:24 PM »
It could also be set to special conditions, including but not limited to alignment. Setting it to trigger on non good creatures would be a reasonable thing to do.
No, it can be set with special limitations such as only triggering on non-good creatures (which was probably used so the Solar could send its summoned buddies out the door and not worry about them and it would still hit most possible intruders).  It's worth reading all the rules on the matter.

If it were "see the symbol", then why would reading it set it off?  If you're reading it, then you definitely saw it before that.  As such, we can determine that "look at" must mean actually paying attention to it, not just see it.
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