De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue

[RetroGamer24]

@Unbeliever You are right with DR but I was not focused on DR at all.  I was on total damage and tactics.  With the first rogue build to get things off like staggered Meepo needed to be in melee range.  A surprise attack, which would happen attacking someone whom didn't know Meepo was there, means one standard action.  For melee it is 1d2+2 (dagger) and then 9d6 SA (deafness as staggered doesn't have die reduction [to my knowledge]).  So around about 35 damage.  Taking in DR, Aid, and Regeneration we have zero damage at the start of combat (yes if the rogue goes first some damage is there but in the grand scheme of things the first attack was useless). Now with deafness (-5) the Solar mar not win initiative but with a bad die role Meepo can also lose, sake of anything Meepo wins.  From the tactics in my last post there isn't much Meepo can do.  Sure FA but that leaves Meepo unhidden for Solar to counter.  If move and hit the damage is pitiful.  If retreat Solar wins by blocking  exit.

As for you build, it is nice but same thing on surprise round.  You get 2 attacks with your hand x-bows so about 126 damage before aid, dr and regen.  Nice damage but now you have an angry solar who can full attack and possibly get initiative.  Now it may be one attack but I can be wrong with that.   Also no pounce so move and hit would take a while to bring Solar down with it able to do a lot with its actions. 

Just my observation. If a being is set to guard I would think some of the total wealth the NPC would have would be what it s guarding plus other things it may carry.  Yes other manuals added in gear so that helped in figuring out what carried what.  Plus if a DM set up this encounter I would garner about 100K would be the treasure itself then what Solar is carrying.  If mad about heavy fort then medium is just as valid an option but things like a shield with daylight and other things.  Maybe a crown or mask since the site is important enough to have a Solar guarding it.  I dunno just my feelings.


Oh and about

[The_Laughing_Man]

...
Now it was agreed upon on the first page alarm would be used but not determined where (And right now I don't give a fig if it was because I don't feel like reading back 10 pages).  For sake of simpleness we will assume it is placed inside the shrine.
...

Alarm is not on cleric's spell list and I think monsters are not allowed to spend their treasure to boost defenses (like hiring an arcane spellcaster). So no alarm there. Kajhera originally brought it up that the Solar's defenses would have alarm. Most likely she didn't notice this detail and it was taken for a fact in the continuing discussion.

[Unbeliever]

@Retrogamer

All your post tells me is that a stupid Rogue could get curbstomped by a Solar.  That strikes me as reasonably obvious.  I will (again) emphasize that I was referring to your post of a few pages ago where they just meet on some featureless plain or something and fight.

That being said, it's trivially easy to defeat the Solar, even with just starting with my simple build skeleton.  Why?  All that rogue build, which I'll call the "Simple Rogue," needs is to win initiative.  Or, alternatively, to be able to weather the Solar's first barrage.  The first one is easier to do, just b/c all the modifiers are spelled out already, but the second isn't hard either. 

Our Solar has a pretty good +9 to Initiative.  A 20th level PC can easily get a +19, with a free reroll in there, +8 (dex) +4 (improved initiative) +5 (warning weapon) + 2 (ring of anticipation), and that's without even trying.  He could also use things like a dorje of hustle, chronocharm of the horizon walker, belt of battle, or travel devotion to be able to make a move and a full attack.  This is all de rigeur for any reasonably optimized Rogue.  I haven't even seen a high level sneak-oriented rogue who couldn't hide or move as a swift action at the table.

Now, I'm sure that someone can counter whatever tactics I put up here.  My point was that it's easy for a Rogue to post high enough damage numbers to murder a Solar (and many other high-level combatants) with ease.  Even half of a build stub, which I provided, does that. 

Hell, with a minor commitment to initiative -- 1 feat and less than 20k in gear -- the Rogue can simply do this.  He teleports (Shadow Hand maneuver) or sneaks into the shrine or wherever.  During the surprise round he quaffs a potion of Sign (another +4 on initiative) and clears his throat loudly.  Rolls initiative.  If necessary, uses the Belt of Battle to take a move action and hide.  Then guns the Solar down. 

There are other, equally useful, tactics. 

I don't want to get too bogged down in this, as I'm not sure what the purpose of it is anymore.  But, no well-built character, of any archetype, is really in a "no hope" situation against a stock CR-appropriate monster, barring those that are either specifically selected to nullify that archetype or character, or those that have wildly-inappropriate CRs. 

P.S.:  thanks for all the cites, guys. 

[RetroGamer24]

*points to quote in sig and leaves it at that*

@Laughing Man

It was agreed upon by all parties in the first posts that alarm is reasonable.   This being a rather significant challenge is stands that a DM would allow alarm to be there by way of there being more then one derpy rogue frolicking along towards the shrine.  If you were DMing this encounter and said no Alarm that is fine for you I am just going on the information that was allowed at the start of this thread.

[Halinn]

It was agreed upon by all parties in the first posts that alarm is reasonable.   This being a rather significant challenge is stands that a DM would allow alarm to be there by way of there being more then one derpy rogue frolicking along towards the shrine.  If you were DMing this encounter and said no Alarm that is fine for you I am just going on the information that was allowed at the start of this thread.

There is a difference between not contesting a point and agreeing to it.

[Unbeliever]

*points to quote in sig and leaves it at that*

Is this even worth responding to? 

[Kethrian]

Again, I will bring up Symbol of Weakness.  Just place that at the entrance to a 60' corridor leading into the shrine.  Rogue has to pass through the doorway, which is enough to trigger it.  Dimensional Lock will ensure that it can't be teleported past.

And, as for not having the Alarm spell, the Solar does have Miracle, which can be used to copy any spell of 7th level or lower.  So Alarm, or an improved higher level version, would indeed be available.

Edit: Plus, this means the Solar can have a Contingencied Heal for the moment he gets incapacitated.

[snakeman830]

I just feel that I should point out the Kobold character (still with no Str boosts, btw, but he does have 10 miracles) can knock a Solar from full to negatives with one full attack.  Forgo the Surprise round, don't give a crap about staggering, and nail it in the face with lots of DR ignoring damage as the Solar's first turn wouldn't be anything as it still doesn't recognize that there's an attacker.  This was the strategy I advocated using pretty early on after I admitted my mistake with staggering strike.

The shrine itself poses the actual difficulty in this scenario, but even so, I feel I've proved my original point that sneak attack is not a trap, which is all I intended with this build.  If a Cleric++ has to expend significant resources to stand a chance, then clearly it can be effective.

Yes, the "significant resources" turn it into a good chance of victory for the Solar, but the point remains that it had to expend them.

[Kethrian]

I'm not arguing that sneak attack is a trap.  My only point is that the Solar would still win.

[Zionpopsickle]

I'm not arguing that sneak attack is a trap.  My only point is that the Solar would still win.

Again, it is not necessary for the rogue to beat the Solar in order for him to win the challenge.  The fact that the Solar still wins has much more to do with the inherent power of full casting as opposed to the weakness of the Rogue itself.  As Snake (snaaake!) said, the fact that the Solar is having to invest high level spells to beat a mundane is proof that the rogue archetype can be successful even in high level play.  Will it be as strong as many other high level archetypes, probably not, but there is always a range of acceptability in the game, otherwise everyone would play as pimped out Tier 1s in all games.

[Kethrian]

Considering the Solar has essentially no magic gear with which to counter a PC laden down with over 850,000gp in items, of course he'll have to expend high-level spells!  If you limited the rogue to items totalling no more in value (171,250gp) than the Solar's sword and bow (which contributed less than 1% to its ability to beat the rogue), the outcome would be very different.

Actually, AMF would do that job nicely.  Not sure if there's a way to lay one down over the entire shrine, but the Solar would keep its regen and +32 spot, while the rogue would lose his Hide in Plain Sight, and have his hide drop to roughly +36, +38 if he has a MW item that gives a +2 to hide.  So that's another option to consider.

[Zionpopsickle]

Considering the Solar has essentially no magic gear with which to counter a PC laden down with over 850,000gp in items, of course he'll have to expend high-level spells!  If you limited the rogue to items totalling no more in value (171,250gp) than the Solar's sword and bow (which contributed less than 1% to its ability to beat the rogue), the outcome would be very different.

Actually, AMF would do that job nicely.  Not sure if there's a way to lay one down over the entire shrine, but the Solar would keep its regen and +32 spot, while the rogue would lose his Hide in Plain Sight, and have his hide drop to roughly +36, +38 if he has a MW item that gives a +2 to hide.  So that's another option to consider.

Giving the Solar magic gear is a major shift of the goalposts.  The goal was always to prove that a 'rogue' could compete against a stock Solar.  A Solar with NPC wealth can beat most 20th level characters rather handily because it is a full caster with a very nice chassis and good magic gear.  Its really not pertinent to the discussion because the Solar winning or losing is less important that how hard the Solar has to try to win because lets face it, most of the time full casters don't really have to try at all to beat mundanes.

And again I think I should point out that against most other mundane combat styles the stock Solar can win by using much lower level spells.  Giving the Solar NPC wealth and a custom spell list is just a distortion of the point that 'rogue' archetypes can compete against high level stock monsters. 

[Kethrian]

If you're unwilling to give the Solar the ability to change his memmed spells, then the encounter should not be in a situation that caters to the rogue, and where the goal is instead the defeat of your opponent.  In such an instance, the Solar will probably be outside flying by at his 150' speed, and it's the rogue's job to catch and eliminate the Solar.  And just to give a plausible reason for this, the Solar is carrying a McGuffin that the rogue wants/needs, but isn't especially important in the mind of the Solar, so he doesn't feel the need to create a bunch of special defenses.

[RetroGamer24]

If you're unwilling to give the Solar the ability to change his memmed spells, then the encounter should not be in a situation that caters to the rogue, and where the goal is instead the defeat of your opponent.  In such an instance, the Solar will probably be outside flying by at his 150' speed, and it's the rogue's job to catch and eliminate the Solar.  And just to give a plausible reason for this, the Solar is carrying a McGuffin that the rogue wants/needs, but isn't especially important in the mind of the Solar, so he doesn't feel the need to create a bunch of special defenses.

+1 here.

[snakeman830]

If you're unwilling to give the Solar the ability to change his memmed spells, then the encounter should not be in a situation that caters to the rogue, and where the goal is instead the defeat of your opponent.  In such an instance, the Solar will probably be outside flying by at his 150' speed, and it's the rogue's job to catch and eliminate the Solar.  And just to give a plausible reason for this, the Solar is carrying a McGuffin that the rogue wants/needs, but isn't especially important in the mind of the Solar, so he doesn't feel the need to create a bunch of special defenses.

+1 here.

Rogue uses Run action to fly 160ft (still hiding, of course), repeating as necessary to prep a full attack on the unsuspecting angel.

That was easy.

[Kajhera]

If you're unwilling to give the Solar the ability to change his memmed spells, then the encounter should not be in a situation that caters to the rogue, and where the goal is instead the defeat of your opponent.  In such an instance, the Solar will probably be outside flying by at his 150' speed, and it's the rogue's job to catch and eliminate the Solar.  And just to give a plausible reason for this, the Solar is carrying a McGuffin that the rogue wants/needs, but isn't especially important in the mind of the Solar, so he doesn't feel the need to create a bunch of special defenses.

+1 here.

Rogue uses Run action to fly 160ft (still hiding, of course), repeating as necessary to prep a full attack on the unsuspecting angel.

That was easy.

This seems remarkably dependent on the angel flying in a straight line for half a mile, unless there's something I'm missing.

I also wonder about your ambushes conveniently sidestepping the whole matter of limited actions in a surprise round... I don't think it works quite how you communicated.

Alarm is, indeed, not on a Solar's spell list, I just got used to having Miracle and Wish around to duplicate overly powerful first-level spells.

[Kethrian]

So you're going to take a -20 to hide and move silently from running.  Seems like the Solar's going to hear you, at the very least.  And if you do manage to get your surprise round, you'll only have a standard action, not a full-attack, thereby applying another -20 to your hide, which is plenty for the Solar to also spot you.  Game over.

[RetroGamer24]

As my sig says,  YES! YES! YES! YES!

I am going to assume snake is picturing the solar standing in full visability looking at some rock.  Alarm, Symbol of Weakness, plus others are going to take care of the rogue.  I showed this in my attack run down if it came to attack.

Keth, Kaj do you think the point is driven home?

[Rejakor]

People seem to be confusing 'the rogue can kill the solar 100% of the time in any circumstances' and 'the rogue is a serious threat to an above-average CR encounter, thus proving that the hidey-stabbey archetype is useful even at higher levels'.  The rogue isn't supposed to kill/defeat the solar 100% of the time.  He's supposed to do it 50% of the time.  That's how the CR system works.

Him and three buddies?  They are definitely supposed to defeat it most of the time.  i.e. a 20th level adventuring party.


As for the people going 'hurrr it's unfair the rogue gets the drop on the solar' well uh holy shit guys, he's a rogue.  He snuck up on someone.  GET OVER IT.

[Kethrian]

People seem to be confusing 'the rogue can kill the solar 100% of the time in any circumstances' and 'the rogue is a serious threat to an above-average CR encounter, thus proving that the hidey-stabbey archetype is useful even at higher levels'.  The rogue isn't supposed to kill/defeat the solar 100% of the time.  He's supposed to do it 50% of the time.  That's how the CR system works.

If the rogue could manage that, I'd agree.  But this rogue can't.

Him and three buddies?  They are definitely supposed to defeat it most of the time.  i.e. a 20th level adventuring party.

Agreed.  But he's alone in this scenario.

As for the people going 'hurrr it's unfair the rogue gets the drop on the solar' well uh holy shit guys, he's a rogue.  He snuck up on someone.  GET OVER IT.

I don't disagree that the rogue can sneak up on the Solar, in the right circumstances, but if the Solar is supposed to be defending a location from intrusion, then he should have all his available resources to put toward that goal, including whatever treasure he is supposed to drop, like +1 armour of heavy fortification.  Since no one arguing in favour of the rogue want to allow that, the simple flying scenario caters to their demands without having a highly intelligent creature just standing around going "Derp!" while he gets stabbed in the back repeatedly.  Care to try and show a 50% chance to win that scenario?