De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue

[Sinfire Titan]

This is why the rogue is a trap.  Thank you.

That isn't what this thread is about! ARGH!

[Kajhera]

This is why the rogue is a trap.  Thank you.

That isn't what this thread is about! ARGH!

Sinfire, you raise a very good point:

People in this thread, what is the question we want to answer here? I don't think we've really liked the original question, but if you want to get back to it we could take a look again.

Sneak attack obviously isn't doing anything in particular on its own, it's just a source of bonus damage that's eating wealth to be able to use effectively - I doubt we'd use up a greater number of resources getting a bard or ranger to similar amounts of damage output (via inspire courage subharmonics shenanigans and probably wraithstriking power attack, respectively). It's just as easy to attack from hiding with many.

Is our question whether sneak attack is 'effective' as a source of bonus damage?
If so:
How would we judge its effectiveness?
What are the opportunity costs for using sneak attack rather than another method of bonus damage?
Are these costs acceptable?
Are they obvious and known?

Is our question whether the 'hide and strike' archetype is effective as a source of gaining advantage over an enemy?
If so:
Er, yes, there is a definite advantage to ambushing someone over being ambushed, and an advantage to not being seen. Even given opportunity cost I don't think this is worth testing.

Is our question simply how effectively Snakeman's rogue can take on a solar?
If so: Both parties currently know way too much about the other party's strategies to be able to tell. If we really care, I suggest we work out a method to do a blind testing of the hypothesis, using DMs controlling stock solars, players controlling and fully knowing the rogue's capabilities, but without knowing what the other controls. Make sure they do not read this forum or have prior knowledge of solar vs. rogue etcetera. Observe the data.

[RetroGamer24]

Kaj makes a very good point.  At this time both Solar and rogue know way too much.  May I also suggest limiting the magic items to only the DMG with some things like Force weapon ability , the collar, and I dunno what else.  Also maybe I stated it incorrectly so how about from all the things my previous post mentioned it shows that the rogue is not effectual.

[Kajhera]

Kaj makes a very good point.  At this time both Solar and rogue know way too much.  May I also suggest limiting the magic items to only the DMG with some things like Force weapon ability , the collar, and I dunno what else.  Also maybe I stated it incorrectly so how about from all the things my previous post mentioned it shows that the rogue is not effectual.

If the question's the last one, changing Snake's rogue would be entirely counterproductive.

[RetroGamer24]

Okay I re read your post and messed up a little.  Indeed having a player(s) control snake's rogue as is while a DM controls the Solar.  Both sides are blind. Shall it be something that makes sense as to why the Solar is on the Material Plane?  I was thinking of doing a tier 4-5 challenge here ont he board designing a 20+ series of encounters and having other post a group of 4 to see how they would fair.  My contrait is I am sticking to Tier 3 and lower for the four boss encounters I am envisioning as well as the two mini bosses per boss with an optional fifth boss with paied mini bosses that don't follow the main rule.

Also how about using a standard 20 rogue with DMG magic items vs a solar?  Same blind test.

[Rejakor]

If the rogue could manage that, I'd agree.  But this rogue can't.

From the numbers i've seen, at least two of the rogues here can oneshot an unsuspecting stock solar, even one flying past really fast, asleep in his solar home, or guarding something staring solar-bored into the solar-woods.  Yeah, shit can go wrong, he can roll not enough damage, he can accidentally trip over the solar's dog, he can have forgotten to scent-blind himself or put on his magic-sensing goggles this morning.  He might have not invested in spellcraft and be unable to identify the alarm spell.  But that's the 50% chance.  i.e. he's supposed to fail 50% of the time, and the solar is a tough foe of it's CR, AND, you seem to be assuming that the DM should be specifically fucking over the rogue (alarm spells (reasonable), fortification armour (specific anti-rogue anti-critmonkey armour.. that costs more than the treasure of the solar.. hm.)).

Agreed.  But he's alone in this scenario.

I wasn't saying he had buddies (although any rogue should, thanks to having social skills, be able to convince some random NPCs to help him out in various ways, and that is part of the rogue class, so it's part of their power package, but people completely ignore it in favour of a dagger rogue failing at doing damage in melee thanks to terrible build).

I don't disagree that the rogue can sneak up on the Solar, in the right circumstances, but if the Solar is supposed to be defending a location from intrusion, then he should have all his available resources to put toward that goal, including whatever treasure he is supposed to drop, like +1 armour of heavy fortification.  Since no one arguing in favour of the rogue want to allow that, the simple flying scenario caters to their demands without having a highly intelligent creature just standing around going "Derp!" while he gets stabbed in the back repeatedly.  Care to try and show a 50% chance to win that scenario?

Why is this solar wearing anti-rogue armour?  Does he know he is going to fight a rogue?  If so, I demand the rogue be given that hell armour that nauseates good planar beings, and greater bolts of outsider slaying.

Also, there are no 20th level rogues.  There are shadowpouncing rogues, there are psyrogue mindspies, there are unseen seers, there are swordsage/rogues, but 20th level rogue is a derp build.  Still, that derp build can use gear and cunning to kill a solar at least 50% of the time.  Just not a solar that knows it's coming and is wearing anti-rogue armour (specifically sneak attack based anti-rogue armour) and has spells up to detect rogues (esp. the specific rogue in the build in this thread.. how odd) and is moving really fast as if expecting attack.  That ups the fucking CR.  If you're taking away class abilities (ability to ambush) then you're changing the CR.


EDIT:  Information gathering is also part of the rogue's abilities.  Solars can't stay hidden as easily due to being giant fucking glowing bastards that shoot lasers out of their head if they get attacked.

Snakeman's rogue is a standard, moderately optimized at best, workaday rogue 20.  In no way is he optimized against solars.  As a rogue player, trust me on this.

Saying that cause he can't beat a solar expecting him and wearing anti-rogue armour and with non-stock spells and using DMM and with a couple of templates is just massive wankery.  If you send a wizard up against a solar in an anti-magic field, odds are, the wizard is going to die.  But no the wizard could be ready for that right- well no that's cheating, stock wizard, and just cause, we'll take away his spells and spellbook and familiar and class abilities.  That's fair, right?  Oh and all his magic items.  We'll replace them with +5 daggers from the DMG.  Best weapon evar, amirite

[RetroGamer24]

The only reason the Fort armor is brought up is because  the Solar would use every defense it could against forces against it.  Example would be a shadow type demon that can spec into assassin.  That is why a Solar would have heavy fort armor.

Also it is not breaking the budget at all for the Solar to have such a thing.  The encounter is EL 23 so that means 290,000 in gold for an NPC.  The two weapons a Solar has cost in total around 90K with some over(base cost of weapons as I am just counting enchantments).  So about 199,000 is left over.  A +1 Full Plate Heavy Fort (not counting the full plate cost) is 26k.  So if we subtract that we get 176,000.  Doesn't seeem like that is earth shattering.

Also by this level isn't it assumed a lot of enemies will have some kind of defense against SA?  From armor to general immunities (undead, plant, contruct).  Heck this is going on way before level 20. 

[Rejakor]

'solar would use every defence available to it' yes

'solar would ignore more common things like elemental damage and spells that autokill you and instead prepare itself for sneak attacks and critical hits' no

[Jackinthegreen]

'solar would use every defence available to it' yes

'solar would ignore more common things like elemental damage and spells that autokill you and instead prepare itself for sneak attacks and critical hits' no

SA and criticals are enough of a threat that at least some of its resources would be devoted to protecting against them, whether that be magic items or spells.  Heavy Fort is probably unlikely because +5 is a hefty enhancement, but there are other, cheaper ways of negating SA and/or crits.

[Rejakor]

Like what.

Name one that doesn't use up MORE TREASURE THAN THE SOLAR IS SUPPOSED TO BE CARRYING, INCLUDING IT'S WEAPONS, IN ONE ITEM.

[Sinfire Titan]

'solar would use every defence available to it' yes

'solar would ignore more common things like elemental damage and spells that autokill you and instead prepare itself for sneak attacks and critical hits' no

Exactly. However, I do concede the idea that the Solar would want Fortification armor as it protects from the ever-swingy critical hits.

However, I'd like to reiterate the OP's question:

My question is this:  How much would you have to remove from the Solar for it to be an even challenge for the darkstalker rogue?

1.  Wealth and feats.  snakeman830 never made a claim beyond being able to defeat a stock monster, so I'm taking this to mean he admits that a Solar with access to wealth and/or feats can create a counter.

Heavy Fort armor is not listed in the stock Solar's statblock, and the OP conceded that a Solar with access to it's WBL or treasure would mop the floor with a Rogue.

Adding in Heavy Fort armor, therefore, goes against the thread's purpose and is not a valid argument.

[RetroGamer24]

So you are telling me a Solar wouldn't protect itself from a death attack from a demon or devil that had the capability?  It wouldn't be prepared at all as that is a viable scenario?

Heavy fort isn't out of the way at all for the Solar to have on a +1 armor.  The solar would have what, a ranged weapon, a melee one, a shield, and armor.  Seems fine to me.

@Sin the first posts also said no 1/day wish nor 20 cleric caster level.  So removing those means this isn't a Solar.  Ox did change his mind (I believe) a few posts later.

[Rejakor]

Hey retro.

How about, instead of stating true things that don't support your argument, which is a bullshit debating tactic, you instead answer my question.

'Why is the Solar defending itself against less-common things that kill it, instead of common things that kill it?'

Is this is a specific roguehunting solar?  Why is he defended against death attacks and nothing else?

Or is he defended against all the other stuff as well, giving him more than PC wealth, and changing his CR considerably?

[oslecamo]

'Why is the Solar defending itself against less-common things that kill it, instead of common things that kill it?'

+1 to this. If anything, the Solar would be investing in anti-scry-and-die items or/and some sort of mindblank for good measure. Armor of heavy fortification only really helps against rogues and similar, and there's much bigger threats at his level range.

[Mooncrow]

I'm just waiting for the argument that the solar could buy some partially charged wands of the 'Heart of X' line

[Rejakor]

Treasure Table
Encounter Level    Treasure Per Encounter
20                          80,000

As a note, the random treasure rolling table says nothing about it all being in gear, either.  That's an assumption you're making (alongside MANY OTHER ASSUMPTIONS) that directly changes the solar from the 'stock' solar into the 'custom' solar.  An entirely different beast.

But hey, 80,000gp.  Let's spend this shit.

Oh wait.

Attack:    +5 dancing greatsword +35 melee (3d6+18/19-20) or +2 composite longbow (+5 Str bonus) +28 ranged (2d6+7/×3 plus slaying) or slam +30 melee (2d8+13)

It's already wielding a greatsword worth 162,000gp, and a +2 longbow that turns all arrows it fires into greater slaying arrows.  So we're already in triple treasure territory giving it more stuff, but hey.

Also thanks to this

Treasure:    No coins; double goods; standard items

2/3rds of that 80k should be spent on 'goods' not magic items (goods are specifically not magic items - they are art objects, gold bars, that kind of shit).

But hey, lets spend 80k on stuff, just to see what a solar would buy.  I could go trawling through the MiC and stuff, but i'm not gonna.

+1 Glamered(Robes) Nimble Mithril Full Plate 14,000

Rod of Absorption 50k

Ring of Evasion 25k

That's what, 90k, but we'll let it slide, angel must have pawned some of those goods or something.

So now we have an angel wearing armour not mentioned in it's entry, wearing a ring not mentioned in it's entry to give it an ability not mentioned in it's entry, and with a powerful spell absorbing item not mentioned in it's entry.  Is is still stock?  Only if it had great luck rolling for that random treasure!  But hey.

Those items are far more useful to an angel than heavy fort.  They stop spells, give it a chance to ignore aoe spells (which with it's respectable reflex, it can surely do) and give it a +9 to AC (+13 with MV).  The only kind of fort it MIGHT have is LIGHT FORT which gives it a 25% chance of ignoring sneak attack damage. 

But it still isn't a stock solar.  In any way.  A stock solar is one with randomly rolled gear.  Like so.

http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/search/1012131/

First roll, 79.  1d3 major items.  Things are looking up for the angel!

Second roll, 2.  Possibly he might have something good!

eurgh, rolled 3 dice instead of 2.  I'll use the first 2.  60, and 8.

Staffs, and Armour and Shields.

I'll do the Staff first.

33, Staff of Defense, Shield, Shield Other, Shield of Faith, and Shield of Law.  Shield of Law, possibly useful, the rest, meh.

Now the armour.

13, +2 shield.

52, Heavy Steel Shield.

So this solar can, if it so chooses, be wielding a Staff of Defense and a +2 Heavy Steel Shield.  Pass.

2hing the greatsword is a far better idea.

[Jackinthegreen]

Like what.

Name one that doesn't use up MORE TREASURE THAN THE SOLAR IS SUPPOSED TO BE CARRYING, INCLUDING IT'S WEAPONS, IN ONE ITEM.

No need to yell.  Emphasizing that last bit isn't going to compel me to respond any more than it would have otherwise.

Anyway, Solar could have concealment from something like Torc of Displacement (2,000g).  Then of course it'll be argued that the rogue has ways around that through something like an item of True Seeing, activated before making the attack series to make sure the solar doesn't use something precisely like Torc of Displacement.

A Formless Vest (3,200g) could be used to negate half of a sneak attack (or critical's) damage, but that won't do much overall in this case.  A decently optimized rogue could be doing over 90d6 of SA in a round after all since 7 attacks at 13d6 is certainly not out of the question.  That does assume the

Hm, there's the Illusion Bane +1 weapon enhancement that specifically allows the wielder to ignore miss chances gained from illusion spells and effects like Displacement assuming the proper square is targeted.  Looks like that form of defense loses ground.

Still, the Torc stands as a cheap way to negate SA or crits assuming the attacker isn't using the Illusion Bane property.

We could just have the rogue use an arbitrarily high DC scroll of Disjunction on the Solar to negate the items, including the possibility of Heavy Fort armor.

[The_Laughing_Man]

fwiw,

If you check the picture of the solar more closely you'll notice that he has:
- a composite longbow (+2)
- a quiver with arrows
- a greatsword (+5 dancing)
- a pair of golden bracers
- a golden pair of plated? boots

In addition one could assume that he has:
- a skirt
- a belt
because astral deva and planetar have those also. But, ahem, by RAW he does not have them!    Oh my.. You are very well equipped!

What is also important to notice that he does not appear to have:
- an armor
- clothes..

[snakeman830]

I'm just waiting for the argument that the solar could buy some partially charged wands of the 'Heart of X' line

Meh, I avoided that by paying full price for everything on the Kobold.

As for the accusations of changing the sheet, I haven't touched the sheet except to double-check on numbers since I finalized those 71 skill points.  Those ten miracle scrolls have been there since the very beginning when the Kobold was prepared to literally kill the Tarrasque ten times over (as Miracle scrolls are cheaper than Wish and are just as effective for this purpose).

Plus, Sneak Attack Fighter doesn't convert feat-+1d6 sneak attack.  It trades the Fighter bonus feats for the Rogue's Sneak Attack progression, so a Sneak Attack Fighter 20 and a Rogue 20 both have +10d6 sneak attack.

Hiding in midair is possible due to the Gleaming armor property.  The Kobold always has Concealment, so can always hide if he's not being observed.  Since he's hidden before approaching the flying angel, HiPS is of no concern.

Concealment really isn't an issue for the Kobold as the hand crossbows have had Seeking on them since the beginning (one of the most powerful +1 bonus enhancements, really, and it's core!)

Regardless, this thread has long since served its purpose.  I'm fine with it being closed as we've established that a Tier 4 character with a bit of optimization and tactics has a good chance of soloing a CR23 monster (which is higher than most characters will ever encounter).  As with all encounters, the exact situation can change the likelyhood of success.

[oslecamo]

Again, I repeat that the Solar is CR 23. Thus level 23 treasure, not 20.

What is also important to notice that he does not appear to have:
- an armor

Now that you mention it, unlike a cleric, the solar doesn't have armor proficiencies.