Author Topic: Skill Feats (Read 19908 times)

dman11235 · « **Reply #20 on:** February 03, 2012, 09:54:08 AM »

Hmm, you might have wanted to fix skills period before you did this rather than wait....

Oh, and I am agreeable to the change.

RobbyPants · « **Reply #21 on:** February 03, 2012, 10:00:37 AM »

I don't actually have any serious fixes in mind yet. I just wanted to nix Open Locks because it seems like a dumb tax when Disable Device already does what Open Locks does.

If I were really serious about this, I'd make a (probably crappy) attempt at Diplomacy, and would likely collapse Hide and Move Silently as well as Spot and Listen, so you don't have to win at two rolls to succeed.

sirpercival · « **Reply #22 on:** February 03, 2012, 10:11:06 AM »

I like Rich Burlew's diplomacy (it smacks more of Negotiation, though), and you could think about adding search and/or sense motive into Perception, since it's all kind of the same thing.

For more skill-combining ideas, I recommend you check out my Magipunk Skills post, since I combined a whole crapload of skills for the setting and axed the +2/+2 feats entirely (since Skill Focus became far superior).

RobbyPants · « **Reply #23 on:** February 03, 2012, 11:13:10 AM »

All in all, Rich's Diplomacy fix is better than the PHB version because of scaling DCs, but it still has a lot of weird issues and can be gamed seriously. Part of why I never touch Diplomacy is that it's so hard to end up with something that even resembles normal negotiations.

Personally, I'd like to see less of a binary win/lose system, and something where you might be able to make concessions, but that's a topic for another thread. I've read several at The Den that I begin to find fatiguing. I can see both sides of the argument, and I never see a good way to handle it.

dman11235 · « **Reply #24 on:** February 03, 2012, 11:53:42 AM »

The thing about Rich Burlews is that it relies on the DM to basically arbitrarily determine if the check succeeds or not. It does grant the ability for concessions, btw Robby, iirc. But again, it's all about DM fiat disguised as a rule, not an actual rule.

Quote from: RobbyPants on February 03, 2012, 10:00:37 AM

I don't actually have any serious fixes in mind yet. I just wanted to nix Open Locks because it seems like a dumb tax when Disable Device already does what Open Locks does.

If I were really serious about this, I'd make a (probably crappy) attempt at Diplomacy, and would likely collapse Hide and Move Silently as well as Spot and Listen, so you don't have to win at two rolls to succeed.

Yeah. Take a look at bauglir's campaign notes, they're on the old boards. He did a pretty good job with the skills. Collapsed those two, dropped a few, did some more tweaking, it turned out nicely.

RobbyPants · « **Reply #25 on:** February 04, 2012, 06:42:07 AM »

Quote from: dman11235 on February 03, 2012, 11:53:42 AM

The thing about Rich Burlews is that it relies on the DM to basically arbitrarily determine if the check succeeds or not. It does grant the ability for concessions, btw Robby, iirc. But again, it's all about DM fiat disguised as a rule, not an actual rule.

I must have forgotten about concessions. All I remember was dynamic DCs.

The less DM fiat, the better. I know, at the Den, Frank was saying the only way to get this to work was with reaction rolls right at the onset of the meeting (ala 2E), but I never really figured out how I'd actually implement that.

Quote from: dman11235 on February 03, 2012, 11:53:42 AM

Yeah. Take a look at bauglir's campaign notes, they're on the old boards. He did a pretty good job with the skills. Collapsed those two, dropped a few, did some more tweaking, it turned out nicely.

Hmm. I'd like to check that out, although, according to Libertad, the old boards are infested with malware.

dman11235 · « **Reply #26 on:** February 04, 2012, 10:05:39 AM »

Yes, I know there's that problem. But there's still a bunch of stuff there that needs to be taken out, so some people still need to go there. I'm working on pulling my stuff off of it, but it's slow going.

If I remember correctly, the concessions come in the form of a lower DC when you offer something more reasonable than the last offer you made. It's been a while, but I think that's how it works?

RobbyPants · « **Reply #27 on:** February 09, 2012, 02:33:21 PM »

Regarding what to do with Open Locks, I was thinking of this to handle combining the skills, as well as something related to how traps play out in the game:

Trapfinding:
In addition to the normal features, you may roll a Disable Device check in place of an Open Locks check with the same DC.

Improved Trapfinding*:
When moving at half speed or slower, you may automatically detect all traps within a 10-foot radius of yourself as if you had taken 20 on your Search check.

*hand this out at 6th level if the class has Trapfinding.

The goal of ITF is to speed up game play when simple traps become more of decoration than anything else. Really, there's nothing to prevent the rogue from declaring they're taking 20 every ten feet, so why not speed it up at the table and say it's just second nature at that point?

Tarkisflux · « **Reply #28 on:** February 09, 2012, 04:38:05 PM »

If you want to boost default trapfinding a bit more, you're welcome to borrow what I did to it in ToP. The change was mostly motivated by rolling the other aspects of trapfinding into search (since search with a DC limited trap finding function is pretty weak), but it might work here as a better lead into your improved trap finding.

Trapfinding: As a full-round action you may move up to your base speed while also searching each 5’ square immediately in front of you for traps. You must "Take 10" when you use this ability, and can not make a check for squares searched in this way. If you reduce your speed to only half of your base speed you may "Take 15" for the round instead. You may do this under pressure and in difficult circumstances and without penalty.

And while I was here, I wanted to chime in with my support for these feats in general. If you don't mind, I'd like to port a number of them back into ToP as well.

RobbyPants · « **Reply #29 on:** February 10, 2012, 09:31:18 AM »

Thanks.

My only complaint about a take-10 or take-15 approach is that you can always take 20 just by blowing ten minutes every ten feet. So, unless speed is a concern, you'd still be better off to take 20 the old fashioned way. I had considered making my first version a take-10 approach, but it seems that the player would stop doing that as soon as they got blasted by a trap with a higher DC.

Really, the only goal here is to speed things up at the table. It's easy to declare that you're taking 20 always; it's just that it's also boring.

dman11235 · « **Reply #30 on:** February 10, 2012, 12:32:41 PM »

Waitwaitwaitwait.....wait......................................................wait.....

What if.....what if instead of making Trapfinding an active skill.....it was passive? The player never declares anything, the DM is in total control of whther or not they see a trap? The players can't get any bonus from spending time searching for traps, so there's no slow down there. It's just an "if you see it, you see it" sort of thing. It doesn't even have to be a roll, maybe. It could be, but it doesn't have to be. something like compare the search modifier they have with the trap's difficulty to find? This way, there's no rolling to tip the players off to something, although you can explain it away by random rolls or a combination of other rolls (like if you roll the player's perception checks or something). Traps would remain as a surprise, unless they've been found by the trapfinder, who can shine by disabling them, rather than merely finding them.

RobbyPants · « **Reply #31 on:** February 10, 2012, 12:56:22 PM »

Well, basically, are you saying if I roll that version of Improved Trapfinding into the normal Trapfinding ability, it'd meed what you're suggesting?

I can see doing it at level 1. Again, it's really just to speed things up, IMO. Also, it gives you a reason to have a trap finder in your party.

dman11235 · « **Reply #32 on:** February 10, 2012, 01:04:50 PM »

I just had a flash of inspiration when I posted that, basically it would be a change to the Search skill entirely. Instead of Search requiring the players to search for things, they are automatically assumed to be searching passively constantly. Without Trapfinding, you can't find traps period, but maybe a Perception check or similar can give them a feeling that there's a trap, and maybe that can give them a bonus against it?

Anyways, I posted this in the trap thread that endaire started in that other forum. It's not directed at your feats, so much as it's at the skill.

Tarkisflux · « **Reply #33 on:** February 10, 2012, 07:18:59 PM »

There's a bit more search forgiveness on my end that I forgot about, so taking 15 works pretty well for me. I probably should have added 5 to each of those numbers when I put it here though. Which would mean that when they got blasted by a big trap while taking 15 they'd just slow down and take 20 instead. I thought it a reasonably speed / safety trade off.

RobbyPants · « **Reply #34 on:** February 10, 2012, 08:41:08 PM »

That trade-off works if there's a time-constraint on the adventure, but if not, then there's no reason not to take 20 all the time.

Tarkisflux · « **Reply #35 on:** February 11, 2012, 12:53:59 AM »

The only time there's really not that trade off in my games is in tomb or abandoned dungeon exploration. Other times there's no traps to care about in the first place or the dungeon is active and if you're taking your time you leave the opposition more time to get into position, but YMMV. In any event, it seems like that sort of thing speeds the game, which you want, while still allowing improved trapfinding later on, which I thought you still wanted as well.

RobbyPants · « **Reply #36 on:** April 28, 2012, 08:45:02 PM »

So I had an idea, but I don't know if it's any good or how to word it.

I'll tag all of the feats in the OP as [skill] feats, and add this rule:

Add up your class levels that don't advance casting in a class that grants 9th level spells. The first such level grants you a bonus [skill] feat as a bonus feat. Every five total levels of these classes grants you an additional [skill] feat.

SneeR · « **Reply #37 on:** April 28, 2012, 10:19:41 PM »

Have only read the first paragraph of the first post but why not make a prereq for Skill Focus be "character level 4th" ?

RobbyPants · « **Reply #38 on:** April 28, 2012, 11:04:49 PM »

Quote from: SneeR on April 28, 2012, 10:19:41 PM

Have only read the first paragraph of the first post but why not make a prereq for Skill Focus be "character level 4th" ?

Why? Because of the Warlock's Deceive Item ability?

SneeR · « **Reply #39 on:** April 28, 2012, 11:15:52 PM »

Quote from: RobbyPants on April 28, 2012, 11:04:49 PM

Quote from: SneeR on April 28, 2012, 10:19:41 PM
Have only read the first paragraph of the first post but why not make a prereq for Skill Focus be "character level 4th" ?
Why? Because of the Warlock's Deceive Item ability?

Yeah... Warlock gets it for free at fourth level. Everyone else has to take a feat for it next opportunity they get. With prereq of Character Level 4th, they can get the feat at 6th level if they wait normally, or they need to do some shenanigans to get it at the same time as the warlock. Either way, going Warlock 4 is a more efficient way of getting Skill Focus (UMD).

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Author Topic: Skill Feats (Read 19908 times)