Free spellcasting from Shapechange?

[zioth]

I've seen this mentioned many times on these boards. If there's already a thread on this, feel free to point it out and tell me to shut up.

The argument I've seen is that spellcasting is an extraordinary ability, so Shapechange should grant it. But I see three major problems with this argument:

1) Shapechange doesn't grant SLA, so it's obvious that the designers didn't indend it to grant spellcasting.

2) Spellcasting (ex) means you have the ability to cast spells in the abstract, but when exactly did you learn the verbal and somatic components? How are you casting spells when you don't have a single spell in your Spells Known list? If the creature you're turning into has the same class as you (sorcerer turning into a dragon, for example), you don't get two spell lists from the same class. Basically, I'd see this as a sorcerer who hasn't assigned Spells Known yet, or a wizard without a spellbook. For cleric casting, your god isn't going to give you spells just because you cast Shapechange; you have to earn them by being a cleric for a while.

3) I understand that it's a nice thought excercise for optimizers, but has any DM in the history of D&D actually allowed this?

[Agita]

There's been a number of threads on this over the years, but not many so far on Min/Max. That is probably because nothing new (or good) ever comes of them. I've yet to see anyone change their mind because of such a thread, even when they don't just mutate into pointless flamewars. Here is the most recent topic in this direction on Min/Max proper; there were more on the old boards, I'll try to find them if you want. I've long been of the opinion that anyone who's made up their mind already won't change it on the topic; for people who haven't yet, it's better and easier to read through old arguments and come to their own conclusions than to be at the middle of yet another backdraft.

To answer your third question, I've played under one, though I didn't use it myself (another player did, however).
Bozwevial, as great as he is, isn't exactly a "sane" DM, though.

[snakeman830]

Well, most spells appear as Su effects on some critter or another, which Shapechange does give access to.  Obviously those monsters in MMV can have their spellcasting obtained as well (as it is explicitly Ex on them).

[The_Laughing_Man]

I've seen this mentioned many times on these boards. If there's already a thread on this, feel free to point it out and tell me to shut up.

You may, if you like, plunge down the rabbit hole.

EDIT: You may want to 'print' the thread for yourself because the old boards will eventually go away.

[Agita]

I've seen this mentioned many times on these boards. If there's already a thread on this, feel free to point it out and tell me to shut up.

You may, if you like, plunge down the rabbit hole.

EDIT: You may want to 'print' the thread for yourself because the old boards will eventually go away.

So that's where the thread was. I didn't even think to check the thread called "Fuck You to casters". Thanks, now I don't have to keep looking.

As for questions 1 and 2: I don't think anyone will disagree that this is cheese of the highest order and most definitely not intended, but that was never what the debate on the topic was about. It also was never intended that you use a Candle of Invocation to call a creature that can give you more Candles of Invocation, yet you can do so trivially without so much as bending the rules. WotC writers get up to some really stupid shit all the time.

[Lo77o]

I've seen this mentioned many times on these boards. If there's already a thread on this, feel free to point it out and tell me to shut up.

The argument I've seen is that spellcasting is an extraordinary ability, so Shapechange should grant it. But I see three major problems with this argument:

1) Shapechange doesn't grant SLA, so it's obvious that the designers didn't indend it to grant spellcasting.

2) Spellcasting (ex) means you have the ability to cast spells in the abstract, but when exactly did you learn the verbal and somatic components? How are you casting spells when you don't have a single spell in your Spells Known list? If the creature you're turning into has the same class as you (sorcerer turning into a dragon, for example), you don't get two spell lists from the same class. Basically, I'd see this as a sorcerer who hasn't assigned Spells Known yet, or a wizard without a spellbook. For cleric casting, your god isn't going to give you spells just because you cast Shapechange; you have to earn them by being a cleric for a while.

3) I understand that it's a nice thought excercise for optimizers, but has any DM in the history of D&D actually allowed this?

Iv been letting players and npc's do this since 3.5 came out, and in all that time, iv never had any issues or problems with it.

I do have a few things that i require.

No matter what form you take, you need to be in that form while resting, and you need to do the normal things required for that caster to regain spells.. Pray, consult spellbook etc.

For casting requiring a spellbook, you need a spellbook with spells in it, and you need to master it.
For Spontaneous casting you gain the spells known of the monster you turn into.
For divine casting you need to pray to your deity to get spells etc.

If you change form for any reason, even if you turn into another monster with the same kind of spellcasting, you loose all memorized or ready spell slots, until you regain them again by having 8 hours of complete rest in the form followed by the normal procedure for gaining spells.

[Kethrian]

If one of my players tried to argue that spellcasting is an EX ability, I'd say, "Sure, you can have the caster level.  But the spell slots and knowledge of the spells themselves are not tied to caster level, so you do not get those, as they are quite definitively magic."

[Wrex]

Spellcasting, the ability to perfom verbal and somatic components, is quite definitly an (Ex) ability.  actually having a spell to cast, is a very diffrent matter.