Improved Unarmed Strike with wildshape

[zioth]

I'm about to start playing an epic monk-type who has excellent wild shaping abilities using Master of Many Forms and some custom epic feats. No matter what form I take, I can use Improved Unarmed Strike to get my normal 5 attacks (4+flurry), but how does this interact with the creature's special attacks?

1) Let's say a creature has a poison bite attack, and I use Improved Unarmed Strike with my teeth. Do I deal poison damage?

2) What about slam attacks?

3) If I have claws, does Improved Unarmed Strike do slashing damage, or is it still bludgeoning?

4) If I use Improved Grab after a successful claw attack, can I do that with my unarmed strike (and monk damage)?

5) Let's say I become a 12 headed hydra. Can I use all 12 attacks with my monk damage, or would I be unable to use Improved Unarmed Strike for those attacks (and thus be stuck with 5 attacks)?

6) I've heard something about using your normal character class-based attacks, followed by the creature's natural attacks as secondary attacks. Is this true? How does it work?

[JohnnyMayHymn]

What's your build, are you proficient with unarmed strike?

[kitep]

Check out these wizard's sites.  Look under the heading "Unarmed Strikes and Natural Weapons"
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a  (Unarmed Attacks Part 2)

and

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070410a  (Unarmed Attacks Part 3)

Good luck!

[zioth]

Thanks for the links! So tell me if I'm understanding this correctly:

Some PC has BaB=16, Improved Unarmed Strike (2d10 damage), multiattack and flurry of blows, and turns into a creature with bite/claw/claw. The claw normally does poison damage, and has improved grab. If he uses flurry, he can only use his unarmed strike. If he does not use flurry, the attack sequence is:

1) Four unarmed Strikes at +16/+11/+6/+1, for 2d10 damage. These attacks do not have poison or improved grab, even if they use a claw.
2) Claw at +14. This attack has poison and improved grab.
3) Second claw at +14, if the unarmed strikes used a body part other than the hand.
4) Bite at +12.

[kitep]

Seems like the bite should also be at +14.

I would also mention the unarmed strikes get full STR bonus to damage.  The claw/claw/bite only gets 1/2 STR bonus to damage.

[dman11235]

1: no, you are not using your Bite attack.

2: no, you are not using your Slam attack.

3: no, you are not using your Claw attack.

4: no, you are not using your Claw attack.

5: no, you are not using your Unarmed Attack.

6: Natural weapons and manufactured weapons (designated as such for ease of comparison) behave differently than each other.  Manufactured weapons are in this game defined as those that gain extra attacks based on a high Base Attack Bonus.  Natural weapons are made separately from your BAB.  This allows you to make a full attack with a sword, and then add a Bite attack at full BAB with a -5 penalty for it being your secondary attack.  In the case of, say, an animal, we'll go with a bear, it will make a primary natural attack at full BAB, and then any secondaries at -5.  It does not matter the BAB of the bear, it gets to make these attacks unless they are otherwise obstructed from doing so (only standard action attack, holding an object preventing a claw, etc.).  Unarmed strikes are, for the purposes of this game, manufactured weapons, not natural weapons.  They do share some similarities and benefits of natural weapons, but they do not ignore BAB, so they are limited by your BAB and incur TWF penalties as normal if you add them to an attacking routine with, say, a sword.  Your UA is made with any part of your body, but if you attempt to make an UA with a claw, then it's still an UA, and not a Claw attack, so it's still Bludgeoning (barring an effect that changes damage type, such as Versatile Strike) and you don't get any effect that triggers on a Claw attack (such as Rend or Improved Grab).

EDIT: take those links with a grain of salt.  They are not the final say of rules.  They are around the fifth line I believe.

[kitep]

I'm a little confused by your answers, but I *think* you're agreeing with everything said so far.  Let's see if we can clear up my confusion.

5) Let's say I become a 12 headed hydra. Can I use all 12 attacks with my monk damage, or would I be unable to use Improved Unarmed Strike for those attacks (and thus be stuck with 5 attacks)?

Your answer is "no, you are not using your Unarmed Attack."

As I understand it, he could do 12 bite attacks, all at full BAB.
Or he could do 4 IUS at full BAB/-5/-10/-15 AND do 12 bite attacks at BAB-5 (or BAB-2 with MultiAttack) for 16 total attacks.

6) I've heard something about using your normal character class-based attacks, followed by the creature's natural attacks as secondary attacks. Is this true? How does it work?

You post a long response, which seems to say that IUS count as manufactured weapons and so if he attacks with IUS and a sword he suffers TWF penalties, which I agree with.  But the question is actually about combining IUS with natural weapons, which does not suffer TWF penalties.  Instead, there are no penalties to the IUS, and the normal secondary natural attack penalties to the natural weapons, even if the natural weapon is normally a primary attack.  Did I miss something?

Since you mention the info in the links should be taken with a grain of salt, here's some text that may be helpful.  Taken from monster manual III, p216, under manufactured weapons, 2nd paragraph (and I assume any monster manual)

(click to show/hide)

Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise (using the manufactured weapon consumes most of the creature’s attention), and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks. These secondary attacks do not interfere with the primary attack as attacking with an off-hand weapon does, but they take the usual –5 penalty (or –2 with the Multiattack feat) for such attacks, even if the natural weapon used is normally the creature’s primary natural weapon.

[dman11235]

5: Your bites do not do unarmed damage.  They do bite damage.  It's the same thing with spiked gauntlets and stuff.  The spiked gauntlet doesn't make much sense (and is a common houserule, but it does need some attention payed to it in order to avoid some pitfalls), but natural attacks do not do your unarmed damage.  That's what I thought the question was: can you do unarmed damage with the hydra bites.  And no, you cannot.  You have one unarmed strike, so it doesn't matter how many arms or whatever you have: you get one iterative set.  Bites are natural weapons, and as such, you can make a full attack and then the 12 bites, assuming you don't use any of the mouths for some other reason.

6: I was giving as complete of a picture as I felt was necessary.  Manufactured weapons follow iterative attacks based on BAB, and natural weapons are secondary and can be added with "no" penalty.  They take a -5 for any secondary natural weapons, while the primary takes no penalty.  I do believe I mentioned that natural attacks don't follow BAB, and as such don't take TWF penalties.

[kitep]

Cool beans.  Looks like we agree.