Author Topic: Why are Undead so hated?  (Read 47735 times)

Offline Endarire

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Why are Undead so hated?
« on: April 28, 2012, 04:28:26 AM »
In general, Undead draw the ire and become the enemies of just about everyone.  Why?

In D&D and many systems, Undead tend to be Evil (just 'kuz).  They're common antagonists.  (Liches/Skeletons/Zombies are terrorizing the countryside/eating our young/making cookies without permission!  Oh NOES!)

There are often classes devoted to destroying/hampering Undead, and on a lesser scale, specific anti-Undead abilities.  (See Turn Undead and Radiant Servant of Pelor.)  These are usually more frequent than other anti-type abilities, except for maybe Dragons.  (I know of no official 3.x anti-Elemental or anti-Plant classes, except perhaps the Blighter and that, for me, doesn't count.)

Is it because Undead symbolize death?  Are we as players and GMs and humans so afraid of death that we want to hunt and destroy it at every opportunity?

Is it because Undead tend to be ugly, smelly, and disease-ridden?

Offline skydragonknight

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Re: Why are Undead so hated?
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2012, 05:00:19 AM »
Create Spawn.

(click to show/hide)
Hmm.

Offline Endarire

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Re: Why are Undead so hated?
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2012, 05:11:36 AM »
I forgot about Create Spawn in the final version of the post.

Still, is that the only thing so hated about Undead?  Is it the most prevalent?

Offline zugschef

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Re: Why are Undead so hated?
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2012, 10:46:16 AM »
because it is unnatural. life and death, and they are neither.

Offline Captnq

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Re: Why are Undead so hated?
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2012, 12:46:47 PM »
In D&D and many systems, Undead tend to be Evil (just 'kuz).  They're common antagonists.  (Liches/Skeletons/Zombies are terrorizing the countryside/eating our young/making cookies without permission!  Oh NOES!)

1. They are evil because they tap into the negative material plane and by the very nature of their very existance they must drain the lives of others, either directly or indirectly, which is a selfish act, which is evil. At best you get is Neutral.

2. Actually, there are very few low paying jobs a skeleton or zombie could not do for much cheaper then a living person. Any sensible guild or union would be opposed to them on that basis alone.

Think of the labor saving devices made from skeletons! An arm and skull at the top of a door would be an automatic door opener! You could make the entire undercarriage of a cart out of Skeleton and have a necromatic automobile! Who needs laborers when you build an entire crane out of a storm giant skeleton? Necromatic powered elevators! The possibilities of a skeleton powered city are endless!

You just have to accept that there are people who live among you that view you as a walking pile of money, if they could just get all that damn FLESH out of the way.

There are often classes devoted to destroying/hampering Undead, and on a lesser scale, specific anti-Undead abilities.  (See Turn Undead and Radiant Servant of Pelor.)  These are usually more frequent than other anti-type abilities, except for maybe Dragons.  (I know of no official 3.x anti-Elemental or anti-Plant classes, except perhaps the Blighter and that, for me, doesn't count.)

I dunno, I suppose the fact that it's possible that your soul could become trapped in a rotting corpse where you are bound to serve for all eternity, forever denied the afterlife you so richly deserve as a good, god/goddess-fearing commoner, just MIGHT make you think that the unlife party kinda sucks. (Remember, you cannot resurrect anyone who has become undead. ANYONE. If that means the soul has moved on, or is trapped in the rotting corpse is up for debate, but let me ask you, which version do you think the clerics are spreading around?)

Is it because Undead symbolize death?  Are we as players and GMs and humans so afraid of death that we want to hunt and destroy it at every opportunity?
BRAINS! BRRRAAAAINS! BRAINS! BRAINS! BRBBRRRAAAAAAAAIIIIINNNNNZZZZZZZZZZZZ! -Grab- CHOMP! *Gnaw* gnawgnawgnawgnawgnawgnaw....

Is it because Undead tend to be ugly, smelly, and disease-ridden?
Watch a horse get eaten by zombies

Now do you understand why people do this?
« Last Edit: April 28, 2012, 12:49:03 PM by Captnq »
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Offline Wrex

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Re: Why are Undead so hated?
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2012, 10:21:07 PM »
Quote
1. They are evil because they tap into the negative material plane and by the very nature of their very existance they must drain the lives of others, either directly or indirectly, which is a selfish act, which is evil. At best you get is Neutral.

How is the Negative energy plane evil? It is -harmful-, but we do not characterize fire as evil, because it burns things, nor do we consider storms evil because theyare destructive. Furthermore, we eat meat. That is "Draining the lives of others" is it not? Does that mean every paladin should fall because he had a good steak? And don't say "because they prey on humans", because there is nothing that says that the undead could not use common livestock, like we do. Not RAW, anyway.

Quote
2. Actually, there are very few low paying jobs a skeleton or zombie could not do for much cheaper then a living person. Any sensible guild or union would be opposed to them on that basis alone.

Think of the labor saving devices made from skeletons! An arm and skull at the top of a door would be an automatic door opener! You could make the entire undercarriage of a cart out of Skeleton and have a necromatic automobile! Who needs laborers when you build an entire crane out of a storm giant skeleton? Necromatic powered elevators! The possibilities of a skeleton powered city are endless!

You just have to accept that there are people who live among you that view you as a walking pile of money, if they could just get all that damn FLESH out of the way.

I'm not even going to pretend you would be willing to pay 50 GP in material components to get a human commoner zombie. Necromancy is expensive . Furthermore, someone has to direct the completely mindless skeletons and zombies in performing the jobs, and highly trained clerics are also expensive. it is far cheaper to simply hire peasants, even over time.
Quote
I dunno, I suppose the fact that it's possible that your soul could become trapped in a rotting corpse where you are bound to serve for all eternity, forever denied the afterlife you so richly deserve as a good, god/goddess-fearing commoner, just MIGHT make you think that the unlife party kinda sucks. (Remember, you cannot resurrect anyone who has become undead. ANYONE. If that means the soul has moved on, or is trapped in the rotting corpse is up for debate, but let me ask you, which version do you think the clerics are spreading around?)

Mindless undead are puppets animated through negative energy. The soul is not involved. That is not up for debate. Furthermore, you can't resurrect them because the body is not avalible, not because the soul is trapped. If you smashed the zombie dead, and you had strong enough magic, you could revive them. (raise dead wouldn't work, too much damage on the body)
Quote
BRAINS! BRRRAAAAINS! BRAINS! BRAINS! BRBBRRRAAAAAAAAIIIIINNNNNZZZZZZZZZZZZ! -Grab- CHOMP! *Gnaw* gnawgnawgnawgnawgnawgnaw....
Zombies are puppets with no sense of hunger. If you are implying ghouls, the faster, more intelligent zombie, nowhere is it stated that they must eat humanoid flesh. They should be destroyed because they are crazy, insane monsters, not because they eat meat.
Quote
Watch a horse get eaten by zombies
Yay, shock tactics! You would do that if you were hungry enough.
Quote
Now do you understand why people do this

 There are  horrible disgusting monstrocities that seek to destroy all life. Plenty of creatures, both living and undead want to do that. They should be destroyed. However, simply because a creature has diffrent biological requirements is not a reason to hate it. Being an insane paranoid hunter would be a reason to hate it. Point of fact, most undead -could- get by just fine without hurting anything other than livestock, the only reason they don't is the "lol, CE" bit inserted at the end of almost every one of thier stat blocks. Saying that undead physiology makes them inherently antagonist towards humankind is absurd. They are feared because they choose to put themselves at odds with us, not because they must.

That said, spawn creating undead can die in a fire. Unless a Wight, say, breaks the neck of every cow it would feed off of so it cannot spawn, they simply cannot make a sustainable population. That, and the attitude of most spawn creating undead make them very unsuitable for close habitation with anything, period.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Why are Undead so hated?
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2012, 06:09:27 AM »
There are  horrible disgusting monstrocities that seek to destroy all life. Plenty of creatures, both living and undead want to do that. They should be destroyed. However, simply because a creature has diffrent biological requirements is not a reason to hate it. Being an insane paranoid hunter would be a reason to hate it. Point of fact, most undead -could- get by just fine without hurting anything other than livestock, the only reason they don't is the "lol, CE" bit inserted at the end of almost every one of thier stat blocks. Saying that undead physiology makes them inherently antagonist towards humankind is absurd. They are feared because they choose to put themselves at odds with us, not because they must.
Actualy, Libris Mortis explores that. Most undeads do have a "craving" for stuff like the flesh of sentient beings. So they're more like extreme drug addicts, they don't really need the drugs, but they'll maim and kill for their "cravings" anyway because it makes them feel "satisfied" above anything else. So at the same time they must and choose put themselves at odds with the living.

Offline Wrex

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Re: Why are Undead so hated?
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2012, 04:20:50 PM »
There are  horrible disgusting monstrocities that seek to destroy all life. Plenty of creatures, both living and undead want to do that. They should be destroyed. However, simply because a creature has diffrent biological requirements is not a reason to hate it. Being an insane paranoid hunter would be a reason to hate it. Point of fact, most undead -could- get by just fine without hurting anything other than livestock, the only reason they don't is the "lol, CE" bit inserted at the end of almost every one of thier stat blocks. Saying that undead physiology makes them inherently antagonist towards humankind is absurd. They are feared because they choose to put themselves at odds with us, not because they must.


Reviewing the appropriate tables, It uses such terms as "Flesh" and "bodies" without specifying the kind. So it would not be required to have that of sentient beings, unless it was houseruled otherwise, such as if you wish to preserve that facet of the enemy.
Actualy, Libris Mortis explores that. Most undeads do have a "craving" for stuff like the flesh of sentient beings. So they're more like extreme drug addicts, they don't really need the drugs, but they'll maim and kill for their "cravings" anyway because it makes them feel "satisfied" above anything else. So at the same time they must and choose put themselves at odds with the living.

Offline veekie

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Re: Why are Undead so hated?
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2012, 05:46:48 PM »
Actualy, Libris Mortis explores that. Most undeads do have a "craving" for stuff like the flesh of sentient beings. So they're more like extreme drug addicts, they don't really need the drugs, but they'll maim and kill for their "cravings" anyway because it makes them feel "satisfied" above anything else. So at the same time they must and choose put themselves at odds with the living.
Yeah, this makes sense in context of their power source, negative energy. Negative energy is a consumptive force, it doesn't normally create, transform or animate, it simply destroys. Magic repurposes it to take the place of its opposite(maybe because it run through whatever spiritual circuitry the same way, maybe because it works better in a shell that is already experiencing decay, or maybe because as a consumptive force it wouldn't run out like positive energy would in a defective shell), but the inclinations are encoded into anything powered off it.

Not to mention, if following the concepts more closely, a living creature is not purely positive energy powered either. It seems to me the process of 'living' would be mystically closer to a balance of the two energies, positive energy building up and repairing, negative energy eroding and breaking down. You can't really change or grow with only one force at work, and running off pure positive energy alone would probably make one explode without mitigating measures.

So is it evil to use negative energy? Hell no. Is it evil to create an otherwise independent, effectively immortal entity that would seek to consume and destroy life(rather than transform it to another form, as a living creature would)? Yes, for reasons of criminal irresponsibility if nothing else.
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Offline Captnq

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Re: Why are Undead so hated?
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2012, 06:24:35 PM »
How is the Negative energy plane evil? It is -harmful-, but we do not characterize fire as evil, because it burns things, nor do we consider storms evil because theyare destructive. Furthermore, we eat meat. That is "Draining the lives of others" is it not? Does that mean every paladin should fall because he had a good steak? And don't say "because they prey on humans", because there is nothing that says that the undead could not use common livestock, like we do. Not RAW, anyway.

Quote from: DMG 157
The Negative Energy Plane is a barren, empty place, a void without end, and a place of empty, endless night. Worse, it is a needy greedy plane, sucking the life out of anything that is vulnerable. Heat, fire, and life itself are all drawn into the maw of this plane,
which always hungers for more. ... It is a dark, empty place, an eternal pit where a traveler can fall until the plane itself steals away all light and life.

What's good about any of that? Seriously. Point to one HAPPY thing about any of that.

Fire consumes, but it gives something back.
Storms can destroy, but they can also bring water which is life.
We eat meat and turn that meat into something else. More of us.

The negative material plane is the place where the laws of conservation of energy and matter stop working. It Destroys. Period. Here stuff ends and does not come back. Ever. No, really. It doesn't. This is it. Buh-bye. Game over. The End.

Evil is being selfish. This entire PLANE is selfish. Note, I did not say that it is TEH EVAL! I said it isn't good. This plane is not good. At all. Nope.

I'm not even going to pretend you would be willing to pay 50 GP in material components to get a human commoner zombie. Necromancy is expensive . Furthermore, someone has to direct the completely mindless skeletons and zombies in performing the jobs, and highly trained clerics are also expensive. it is far cheaper to simply hire peasants, even over time.

It's 25 gp/hd for animate dead. And a Fell Animate Acid Splash is 3rd level and will turn a 12 headed hydra into your personal Zombie Slave if you time it JUUUUUUST right, free-o-charge. All I gotta do is find you, knock you out, drag you home, tie you down, and bleed you. Bleed you REEEEEEEEEL Slow... Then, just before you die, Fell Animate Acid Splash right to the face. One Free Zombie. Then I just need to peel off all your skin to get to the good parts.

(Yeah, I can see why people would warm up to Necromancers.)

3rd level spells are 5th level wizards or clerics. Cheap. Control is not a concern.

Quote from: MM 225
A skeleton does only what it is ordered to do. It can draw no conclusions of its own and takes no initiative.

Open door when anyone approaches. The skull has one eye socket on one side, one eye socket on the other and just enough spine, shoulder, and arm to do the job. It will keep following orders, even if control is relinquished, because it's mindless. You just can't ever CHANGE those orders, once they are given.

Now the Skeleton powered cart, you'd need some sort of transmission, so you can take the skeletons in and out of gear, otherwise the cart would never stop. Those legs never stop pumping.Of course if you have an accident, armless skeletons might start running around after they break away from the bottom of your cart, but that's just a design flaw, not a problem with application.

Mindless undead are puppets animated through negative energy. The soul is not involved. That is not up for debate. Furthermore, you can't resurrect them because the body is not avalible, not because the soul is trapped. If you smashed the zombie dead, and you had strong enough magic, you could revive them. (raise dead wouldn't work, too much damage on the body)

No. What is up for debate is why people don't like the undead. I stated that people cannot be brought back from the dead while they are undead. EVER. As a cleric, I am trying to inspire faith in people. One way is by being someone they like. Another way is to give them something to FEAR. Now then... what boogieman could I use to scare the faithful into showing up to church and donating every week? Hmmmm...

Oh BTW,
Quote from: TRUE RESURRECTION
This spell can also resurrect elementals or outsiders, but it can’t resurrect constructs or undead creatures.

Note, it does not say, It can make a new body if someone is a zombie. It says, IT CAN'T BRING BACK SOMEONE WHO IS UNDEAD. That means, if you die, and I animate your corpse as a zombie, your friends can WISH you a new body, but they can't put your soul back inside it until your Zombie Body is destroyed. Period. End of Statement. They can Wish the Zombie Dead, and that might even work, but while that Zombie body Exists, YOU CAN'T COME BACK.

Now then, many DMs ignore this. And I don't know if your soul is trapped in the zombie body. But by the rules, you're screwed. And note, clone would get around this by getting your soul into a new body before the zombie gets back up. But as per clone, all ties to the old body are severed when you activate a clone, so that animated corpse really ain't you, now is it?

Quote from: Captnq
BRAINS! BRRRAAAAINS! BRAINS! BRAINS! BRBBRRRAAAAAAAAIIIIINNNNNZZZZZZZZZZZZ! -Grab- CHOMP! *Gnaw* gnawgnawgnawgnawgnawgnaw....
Zombies are puppets with no sense of hunger. If you are implying ghouls, the faster, more intelligent zombie, nowhere is it stated that they must eat humanoid flesh. They should be destroyed because they are crazy, insane monsters, not because they eat meat.

I'm being funny. Mostly funny. It was a joke. This part:
Quote from: This is funny
BRAINS! BRRRAAAAINS! BRAINS! BRAINS! BRBBRRRAAAAAAAAIIIIINNNNNZZZZZZZZZZZZ!
And this part:
Quote from: this is funny
CHOMP! *Gnaw* gnawgnawgnawgnawgnawgnaw....

However, in retrospect, I will agree that this part:
Quote from: not funny
-Grab-

Is not funny. Nope. That part was a total downer. I really shit the bed on that part of the joke. It seemed funny at the time, but I really flubbed the timing.

You see, you keep combining real world examples with gaming examples. So I thought it was okay to do the same.

Yay, shock tactics! You would do that if you were hungry enough.
No. I would never do that no matter how hungry I was. I would shoot myself, in the head, and end my pain and misery before I ever got that hungry. I like life, but I would not want to exist in that state for even a little while.

There are horrible disgusting monstrocities that seek to destroy all life. Plenty of creatures, both living and undead want to do that.

Uh, no. I disagree. You see, the living creature most likely wants to keep living after it's destroyed all other forms of life. It would like to be the last one left, but I'm sure it's plans don't involve suicide at the end.

However, simply because a creature has different biological requirements is not a reason to hate it. Being an insane paranoid hunter would be a reason to hate it. Point of fact, most undead -could- get by just fine without hurting anything other than livestock, the only reason they don't is the "lol, CE" bit inserted at the end of almost every one of thier stat blocks. Saying that undead physiology makes them inherently antagonist towards humankind is absurd. They are feared because they choose to put themselves at odds with us, not because they must.

One, it's not biological, it's magical. You seem to want to treat a vampire like he's infected with something. He's not. He's a bottomless pit. He takes everything and gives back nothing. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Actually, the undead don't need to feed at ALL, when you read the actual write ups. A vampire doesn't need livestock. He doesn't need humans.He can sit in his coffin for a thousand years and pop up the next day without one negative to anything.

He just has an entire UNIVERSE OF NEGATIVE ENERGY poking him in the back of his brain saying, "G'won... you know you want to... eat just a little bit of life force. You'll feel better."

See, THAT'S the problem. You assume there is a conservation of matter an energy. There isn't. In the d20 universe, there is good and evil. Evil can win by destroying everything. Not, a planet laid waste, but actual NOTHING LEFT. No dust, no light, no information, nothing.

A singularity may crush you into a tiny dot, but there is at least something left. You continue to influence the universe by adding just a little bit of mass to it. You create just a little bit more gravitational pull.

The negative material plane doesn't even leave you that.

That said, spawn creating undead can die in a fire. Unless a Wight, say, breaks the neck of every cow it would feed off of so it cannot spawn, they simply cannot make a sustainable population. That, and the attitude of most spawn creating undead make them very unsuitable for close habitation with anything, period.

The wight doesn't need to eat anything. It eats because it WANTS to, not because it HAS to.

Your question was "Why are Undead so hated?" The answer is: The D20 universe is not the same as the real world. The laws of physics are not the same. Good and Evil are actual tangible things. Undead are usually evil, sometimes neutral, and only in extreme circumstances for limited periods of time, good. People don't like evil and fear that which is not like them. As a rule, the undead scare the crap out of them. Deal with it."
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Offline Captnq

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Re: Why are Undead so hated?
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2012, 06:35:17 PM »
So is it evil to use negative energy? Hell no.

Uh, YES IT IS.

Holy Crap, LOOK. They have a DETECT EVIL Spell. IT. DETECTS. EVIL.

Stop trying to bring subjective morality into an objective morality universe.

The detect evil spell doesn't detect if Stealing candy from a baby is wrong. IT JUST DETECTS EVIL. It doesn't judge.

You keep trying to say, 'Well, evil could be put to good use in some situations..." Guess what? In the D&D universe, that makes you EVIL.

Evil is a touchy subject, but we can define it in the game system. I like to sum it up like this:

Evil is being selfish.

I could spend hours posting about that statement, but it's a good rule of thumb for THE OBJECTIVE MORALITY of d20 3.5

Using spells with the evil decriptor and negative material plane energy is evil. Do it enough, you have alignment drift to neutral, then evil.

Quote from: Idiot who does not get it
But what if I need this evil spell to do something good!

That's what atonement spells are for. You do what needs to be done, but you had a really good reason? You go to your church and ask for forgiveness. Why does it work? Because that's how the rules work. You don't like it, Play Vampire: the Masq.
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Offline nijineko

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Re: Why are Undead so hated?
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2012, 07:26:27 PM »
hmmm, while i agree with some of the comments about evil and good, i don't think that i can agree that it is inherently evil to use negative energy.

i recall a thread that listed evil uses of positive energy and good uses of negative energy. i have never read that thread, so i cannot vouch for the contents, however.

now, i do think that there are a great number of evil uses for negative energy, but the negative energy is not evil in and of itself, nor necessarily evil to use it. also, it is worth noting that negative energy is used almost exclusively by "evil" types, and positive energy by "good" types, though there are exceptions.

i tend to think of the positive and negative energy as having natures similar to electricity.

Offline betrayor

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Re: Why are Undead so hated?
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2012, 08:53:57 PM »
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/inflictLightWounds.htm

Oh look a spell that uses negative energy,surely it must be evil......

Oh wait it is not,ergo negative energy does not equal evil......

There are some spells that are evil like protection from good or summoning and evil outsider or even creating undead,however just using negative energy is not evil,
and just the same, using positive energy is not good....

Offline littha

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Re: Why are Undead so hated?
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2012, 09:20:07 PM »
Quote from: DMG 157
The Negative Energy Plane is a barren, empty place, a void without end, and a place of empty, endless night. Worse, it is a needy greedy plane, sucking the life out of anything that is vulnerable. Heat, fire, and life itself are all drawn into the maw of this plane,
which always hungers for more. ... It is a dark, empty place, an eternal pit where a traveler can fall until the plane itself steals away all light and life.

What's good about any of that? Seriously. Point to one HAPPY thing about any of that.

Quote
The Positive Energy Plane has no surface and is akin to the Elemental Plane of Air with its wide-open nature. However, every bit of this plane glows brightly with innate power. This power is dangerous to mortal forms, which are not made to handle it. Despite the beneficial effects of the plane, it is one of the most hostile of the Inner Planes. An unprotected character on this plane swells with power as positive energy is force-fed into her. Then, her mortal frame unable to contain that power, she immolates as if she were a small planet caught at the edge of a supernova. Visits to the Positive Energy Plane are brief, and even then travelers must be heavily protected.

Also not a happy place... it makes people explode.

Offline linklord231

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Re: Why are Undead so hated?
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2012, 10:18:18 PM »
Here's the thing:  the designers could not make up their mind about the morality of necromancy and negative energy spells.  Sometimes, they give the impression that negative energy is Evil, and sometimes it doesn't have any more alignment restrictions than the elemental plane of Fire.  Since I really can't explain it better than Frank and K, I'll quote the Tome:
Quote from: Tome of Necromancy
The rules of D&D attempt to be all things to all people, and unfortunately that just isn't possible if you're trying to make a system of objective morality. By trying to cater to two very di erent play styles as regards to the moral quandaries of the use of negative energy, the game ends up catering to neither and this has been the cause of a great many arguments for which there actually are no possible resolutions. Ultimately therefore, it falls to every DM to determine whether in their game the powers of Necromancy are inherently evil, or merely extremely dangerous.
That's a choice which must be made, and has far reaching implications throughout the game. That's an awful lot of work, and most DMs honestly just don't care enough to be bothered with it, and I understand. Fortunately, we have collated those changes for you right here:

The Crawling Darkness:
Many DMs will choose to have Negative Energy in general, and undead in particular, be inherently Evil. So much so that we can capitalize it: Evil. And say it again for emphasis: Evil. That means that when you cast a negative energy wave you are physically unleashing Evil onto the world. When you animate a corpse, you are creating a being whose singular purpose is to make moral choices which are objectionable on every level. That's a big commitment. It means that anyone using Inflict Wounds is an awful person, at least while they are doing it. The Plane of Negative Energy is in this model the source of all Evil, more so than the Abyss or Hell. It's Evil without an opinion, immorality in its purest most undiluted form.

Playing with Fire:
Many DMs will choose to have Negative Energy be a base physical property of the magical universe that the D&D characters live in like extremes of Cold or Fire it is inimical to life, and it is ultimately no more mysterious than that. An animate skeleton is more disgusting and frightening to the average man than is a stone golem, but it's actually a less despicable act in the grand scheme of things because a golem requires the enslavement of an elemental spirit and a skeleton has no spirit at all.  The Plane of Negative Energy in this model is precisely the same as all the other elemental planes: a dangerous environment that an unprotected human has no business going to.

And because it's relevant to the topic at hand, I'll quote what this means with regard to mindless undead.
Quote from: Tome of Necromancy
If Negative Energy is inherently Evil, Skeletons must be as well. That means that they actually do Evil things. An uncontrolled skeleton will fi nd the nearest source of life and start ripping it to pieces. A skeleton does not need to be commanded to attack, but to stop tearing up your vegetable garden (assuming even that it had not already found a more vigorous source of life such as the family dog). A commanded skeleton is a vicious, unthinking killer on a chain not an inert construct awaiting commands.
If Negative Energy isn't Evil by itself, neither are skeletons. As described they aren't moral agents. That means that they don't have an alignment other than Neutral. Like a viper or a scorpion, though they do things that a paladin wouldn't necessarily condone (such as use poison for the snake or move around after death for the skeleton), they aren't gifted with the ability to make moral choices and default to the same Neutrality of the animated cabinet. Ordering a skeleton around could be Good, Evil, or Neutral depending on whether you are telling it to save children from a burning house, throw bloated corpses into the town well, or just carry your swag out of your basement.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2012, 10:19:51 PM by linklord231 »
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Offline veekie

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Re: Why are Undead so hated?
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2012, 04:14:37 AM »
So is it evil to use negative energy? Hell no.

Uh, YES IT IS.

Holy Crap, LOOK. They have a DETECT EVIL Spell. IT. DETECTS. EVIL.
Evil =/= Negative energy.
Evil spells like Blasphemy and such draw upon cosmic force of Evil. Its an Outer Planar force.
Negative energy spells like Enervation and Waves of Exhaustion draw upon the elemental force of negative energy. Its an Inner Plane, a building block of the universe.

Creating undead is evil because of its consequences are a naturally immortal bane of life, and possibly preventing the soul from doing whatever its meant to do. I'd argue against the spell itself being evil, unless say Orcus designed the original and built evil into its source code, but the act is evil because it unleashes something which will cause harm by its nature and existence. It would be just as evil to build a golem with the purpose of 'destroy all life'.

Besides, if you're going perpetual power sources you could just bind some fire elementals. I'm sure you can translate heat to work fairly easily, and if you get bulk amounts of smaller elementals you could deal with any problems with a large bucket of water.
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Re: Why are Undead so hated?
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2012, 04:57:38 AM »
Ring Gates (40k) work. Hold one over the other, pour water through the top one, place a water wheel between them.
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: Why are Undead so hated?
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2012, 07:07:35 AM »
Ring Gates (40k) work. Hold one over the other, pour water through the top one, place a water wheel between them.
~ Now you're thinking with Portals.

Actually that doesn't work.  But if you pour it through the bottom one, then you've got something.  ;)
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Offline Prime32

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Re: Why are Undead so hated?
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2012, 12:54:52 PM »
Ring Gates (40k) work. Hold one over the other, pour water through the top one, place a water wheel between them.
~ Now you're thinking with Portals.

Actually that doesn't work.  But if you pour it through the bottom one, then you've got something.  ;)
It falls through the top one without activating it, then hits the bottom one. If you poured it through the bottom one it would be harder to add the wheel.

Offline Captnq

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Re: Why are Undead so hated?
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2012, 11:16:53 PM »
I knew I should just have ignored this thread.

Look. Stop jumping topics.

TOPIC: Why are Undead so hated?

Some undead are evil. People are adverse to evil. I have presented plenty of proof that makes SOME UNDEAD EVIL. Deal with it.
So, unless you can explain to me why people would love EVIL UNDEAD, we have just explained why Most SANE self-aware living creatures in the d20 universe hate EVIL undead.

If you disagree with the above statement, you'd better have something better then 'but not all undead are evil', because I'll just assume you can't read or are a troll.

Now then, some undead are Neutral. Usually they are the mindless kind. Yes, they arn't evil. So we should LOVE the Zombie, yes?

Now wait, you seem to forget one important, itty bitty, tinicy wincy, but every so important DETAIL...

SOMEONE MADE THAT ZOMBIE.

Now then, let me check....

ANIMATE DEAD
- PLAYER’S HANDBOOK (3.0)
- PLAYER’S HANDBOOK 1 (3.5)
Necromancy [Evil]

Wow. Let me check what Evil means....

Quote from: THE FRICKIN' RULES, YEAH BABY!
Evil: Spells have the evil descriptor because they do one or more of the following things:
• They cause undue suffering or negative emotions.
• They call upon evil gods or energies.
• They create, summon, or improve undead or other evil monsters.
• They harm souls.
• They involve unsavory practices such as cannibalism or drug use.
Some would point out that a fireball spell is likely to cause undue suffering, and it could be used to kill a group of orphans. Does that make fireball an evil spell? Fireball, by itself, simply creates a blast of fire. Fire can be used for evil purposes, but it is not inherently evil. Contrasted with a spell such as shriveling, whose only purpose and only possible use is to wither the flesh of another living creature in a painful and debilitating fashion, it becomes easier to see why shriveling is an evil spell.
The judgment cannot be based solely on effect. Your campaign could have a spell called vitality leech that calls upon a demon that drains Strength points from a target for a short time. The spell’s effect is only slightly different from ray of enfeeblement, but the approach and execution are very different. Vitality leech is an evil spell, while ray of enfeeblement is not. Although the ultimate game effect is the same, the character in the game world faced with the two spells undoubtedly regards them differently. Tapping into evil power is an evil act in and of itself, no matter what the effects or the reason for using the power might be.

PERIOD. END OF STATEMENT. Thank you for playing. Go play something else if you don't like the rules.

So again, this is an OBJECTIVE MORALITY universe. There IS good. There IS evil. People don't like evil. Everything that makes an undead what it is either directly or indirectly comes from evil.

People do not like undead. Period. You wanna run a game where they get all happy chummy with the undead, you go ahead. Maybe someone made the Positive Material Plane Baelnorn creation process common. Maybe there are animated Zombies made from positive material plane energy running around Farting A Pine Fresh Scent.

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