Why are Undead so hated?

[nijineko]

lol.

fun post.

[littha]

You could create undead using a neutral spell... like Enervation, which definitely uses negative energy. Then again that creates Wights.

[Captnq]

You could create undead using a neutral spell... like Enervation, which definitely uses negative energy. Then again that creates Wights.

I could use Fell Weaken and Acid Splash to make a zombie and technically, not be evil.

But this is an objective morality universe. If you are commiting Evil, the Universe KNOWS. You can't rules lawyer your way into heaven. I don't care what the descriptors say. I don't care WHY you are doing it.

Undead. Are. Evil.

You play with the undead long enough, you start to become undead too.

Now, that said, my Undead are rather sympathetic.

I got the reluctant lich that the players talk to on a regular basis. Some would say they a friends with him. He's not friends with them. He's selfish. He's nice to them because he's fucked and he needs their help and sucking the life out of them isn't going to get him what he needs.

I had a whole plot like around a LE vampire. Not CE, LE. Wanted to make the warrior woman of the party his bride. WILLING bride, mind you. No fun forcing her. Spent Months trying to seduce her. She wound up curing him and making him mortal again. THEN he turned neutral. I've had Ghasts that were so screwed up they made the party cry out of pity because of how horrible life had been to him.

Then he tried to eat some little kid.

I've had a red wizard of thay kill a servant, turn him into a zombie, then keep him in the servants quarters... with the zombie's ex-wife. Over the years she went insane, convinced herself he was still in there and they had a very twisted fucked up relationship. She spent her free time sewing parts of him back on and even slept with him in her bed. And for his part, he never tried to eat her brain.

The players killed the Wizard, found the servants, and had NO idea what to do about it.

But the one, consistant thing about my undead is, it's horrible. As in HORROR. That's what Undead are for.

Even games where you get to play sympathetic undead, like Vampire The Masq, it's still a game of personal horror. That's the point of the undead. In just about every game, every movie, every book, even when we are supposed to like that rotting corpse, that sympathy is just to make the situation more horrifying.

What would YOU do if you had to live with your spouse the rotting corpse and serve the man who turned him into a mindless shambling zombie? Would YOU think that was positive in ANY way shape color or form?

If the answer is yes, then friend, you need professional help.

[littha]

You could create undead using a neutral spell... like Enervation, which definitely uses negative energy. Then again that creates Wights.

But this is an objective morality universe. If you are commiting Evil, the Universe KNOWS. You can't rules lawyer your way into heaven. I don't care what the descriptors say. I don't care WHY you are doing it.

It's not an evil action to cast enervation.

[linklord231]

But that was exactly my point.  Casting Animate Dead is an Evil act.  But why is it an Evil act?  Because it has the [Evil] descriptor.  But why does it have the [Evil] descriptor?  Because some designer somewhere was under the impression that all Skeletons and Zombies are inherently evil, and so creating one would be physically unleashing Evil into the world.  This begs the question, "why are Skeletons and Zombies inherently evil?"  And if the answer is "Because they run on negative energy," then you have some serious thinking to do with regards to the nature of negative energy.  If you decide that negative energy is not inherently evil, and can't come up with some other reason for why Skeletons and Zombies (and other mindless undead) are inherently evil, then the only logical conclusion is that they aren't, and the designers were mistaken when they put "always neutral evil" in the Alignment entry.  You should then drop the [Evil] descriptor from Animate Dead (though not necessarily from Create (Greater) Undead), because if negative energy is Neutral and Skeletons are Neutral then there is no reason that making one should be Evil. 

Back to the original topic, I think it has to do with psychology.  Zombies and Skeletons represent the other.  Something that physically resembles humans, but cannot be communicated with, and has a psychology so alien that we cannot predict their thinking.  But the most terrifying part is that you could end up like that.  They are a force that cannot be controlled, reasoned with, or even understood. 
Unfortunately, that's nothing like how the undead are represented in D&D.  With a few exceptions, undead do not self-propogate.  There is relatively little chance of you turning into one, which is one of the biggest things that make undead so terrifying (in my opinion, anyway).  And even if your character does turn into a Wight, you, the player, do not.  You just say "crap, guess I have to roll a new character" and get on with the game. 
As the DM, you can choose to implement some of the psychological reasons for hating Undead in the NPCs you make.  Maybe, even though in your world Skellies are Neutral, the NPCs are unfairly prejudiced against them because of the reasons above.  Or, if you think Skellies are Evil, maybe the NPCs are totally justified in their hatred, because uncontrolled Skeletons keep wandering too close to town and killing the livestock. 

In the end, it's important to take away a certain lesson from this.  Even in a universe with Objective Morality, it's important to think critically about why certain acts are Good or Evil.  If all you can come up with is "Because the book says so", even when there's plenty of evidence to the contrary, then maybe it's time to use your DM World Building Powers to adjust the rules so that they make sense.  You may just find out that Pelor is Evil.

[Keldar]

Would you want your grandmother's corpse walking around, even if it was merely to bake cookies?

[skydragonknight]

Would you want your grandmother's corpse walking around, even if it was merely to bake cookies?

Hey. They don't bake them like they used to.

[betrayor]

I agree creating undead,its evil because you are tampering with victims soul and he would be unable to ressurect,unless destroyed,
but the concept of a good undead it is allready in this game......
Consider for example  the sanctify the wicked spell,it would transform an totally evil Undead to a stalwart protector of good.....
So i think that space should be given for special cases.......
And  again just using negative energy is not evil......
Is it more evil to attack someone with inflict light wounds ot with meteor swarm?

[skydragonknight]

The difference between Neutral (animals) and Chaotic Evil is that Neutral kills/eats you for sustenance while Chaotic Evil kills/eats you just for the hell of it. I don't know about Intelligent undead, but non-intelligent tend to behave CE.

As for (non-voluntary) intelligent undead, I would imagine having your soul dragged kicking and screaming into a strange form with little semblance of your former self, and having everyone you've ever known either terrified of you or wanting to put you out of your misery (whether merely pity or part of a self-righteous crusade) would probably drive most of them insane. A part of them want to be released, but the body demands to live. Your values and morality would be hard to hold onto, and you'd envy both the living and the fully-dead so much that such envy would easily become hate. Even should you come to accept your new existence, the envy and hate would remain.

[Kajhera]

I can definitely see a good aspect to a plane that only consumes, in a world where there is much generation out of nothingness.

The Negative Energy plane isn't the only thing violating conservation of energy and really occupies a fundamental elemental ecological niche. If all we had were positive energy, we would indeed explode.

Mindless undead: Reasons to hate:
A: Desecration of the dead
B: It is easy for an Evil cleric to take control of them - and hard for a Good person to get that control back
C: Left uncontrolled they have destructive properties

Intelligent spawnless undead who retain their former selves willingly and aren't slaughtering orphans to do so (Necropolitans, possibly Bone / Corpse): Reasons to hate:
A: Primal revulsion
B: Misidentification with more dangerous Undead
C: Unwillingness to trust beings who have had a significant shift towards the alien, and likely in their priorities - they don't want sex, or food, or offspring - how else have their priorities changed? What have they been replaced with?

Intelligent undead who do not retain their former selves:
A: Desecration of the dead, the elimination of someone else, making them much more difficult to get back
B: If we *did* get attached to the new being, we would be faced with the extraordinarily cruel choice of using resurrection magic to bring back the former being, or retaining the new one
C: These sort tend to be Evil, and hungry, and spawn-creating, more than any other sort

Intelligent undead who partially retain their former selves:
A: Belief that the change is significantly for the worse and/or would not be desired by the former self.
B: What if their souls are held accountable for their actions in this state?

Undead in General:
A: Primal Revulsion
B: Disruption of Resurrection Magic
C: Easily Controlled by Evil, but not Good
D: Threat to Belief in how the Afterlife SHOULD go
(e. we've been brainwashed by inevitables into stridently believing in the necessary immorality of immortality)

F: You picked something other than Necropolitan (doesn't alter your morals), Deathless (get controlled by Good instead; doesn't make you Evil), or Ghost (turn resistance and doesn't make you Evil) to become, and that's just not the best choice.

[Braininthejar]

Also, many of the spontaneously created undead are results of / associated with great evil - if someone hated his killers so much he wouldn't stay dead, he isn't going to become a productive member of the society.

As for undead labour, there was one Warhammer scenario ( in the Enemy Within campaign ) that did make it work - the city started with army of undead used to defend them against chaos when the capital city didn't send them reinforcements and gradually the idea of tireless undead servants grew on the general populace.

[dither]

Also, many of the spontaneously created undead are results of / associated with great evil - if someone hated his killers so much he wouldn't stay dead, he isn't going to become a productive member of the society.

Beat me to it.

...
You can also look to the mythology behind the undead. Have you heard of posthumous execution?

Some dudes throughout history were so scary-bad that people felt it necessary to dismember their corpses after they were dead. There are records of individuals being shot, stabbed, hanged, mutilated, and more... after death. Legends of zombies and ghosts and vampires often spring up around terrifyingly evil individuals.

Necromancers tend not to be the nicest people, and even disregarding the whole objective universe of Dungeons & Dragons, that vast majority of people who use the dead don't use them for anything good. Don't be argumentative and say that they do, because they don't. You can make a world where they do, but it isn't common.

You can say it's because the undead are rotten and smelly and look like people but aren't, but mostly undead are the remains of evil people, or otherwise created by evil people, or otherwise used for evil purposes. And I don't mean that in the capital-E sense, I mean it in the "I like to cause pain and torment" evil.

So yeah. In a world where being drained of all your life force will cause you to be reanimated as a wight, you'll have classes dedicated to making sure those suckers don't propagate. In a world where committing mass murder will cause you to be reanimated as a mohrg, who then transforms those slain into zombies (and imagine the ghosts you left in your wake from your first killing spree), you'll have orders devoted to your destruction.

In a world where going insane and committing suicide will transform you into an allip... I hope you get the idea. Undead are real, they usually aren't nice, and they're common enough that someone has to do something about it. It's a tough job, but someone has to do it.

Hated? I don't see why they have to be hated just for being undead. People can hate anything. Even nice things. But mass hatred of the undead? Think about the story behind the particular undead creature you're talking about. Zombie dragon? HOLY CRAP.

[altpersona]

The Negative Energy Plane is a barren, empty place, a void without end, and a place of empty, endless night. Worse, it is a needy greedy plane, sucking the life out of anything that is vulnerable. Heat, fire, and life itself are all drawn into the maw of this plane,
which always hungers for more. ... It is a dark, empty place, an eternal pit where a traveler can fall until the plane itself steals away all light and life.

sounds pretty pleasant to me 

relaxing, like meditation.

also, it reminds me, my 17th anniversary coming up in a couple weeks.

[whitetyger009]

creating an undead creature is an evil act for several reasons. 

1 when you create undead you are enslaving them.  go look at any of the Create Undead spells.  they are created under your controll.  i would say that the enslavement of any creature is an evil act. 

2 when you create undead you are disturbing thier eternal rest.  you are yanking them out of their graves and placing them under your controll.  you might get around this by having people sell their bodies into service.  kind of like donating your body to sience except you get paid for it.  but you still have to look at the fact that their eternal rest is being disturbed and this is not a 'good' act.

3 using the Negative Energy to do the work.  absolute power corrupts absolutely.  it doesn't happen over night but it is a gradual effect.  this morality isn't imposed by the universe at random.  the quote 'i did evil and the universe knows' is a bit absurde.  you know what you did was evil.  and that guilt will affect you. 

4 the ends do not justify the means.  this goes along with number 3 but a little deeper.  even if you are trying to accomplish a good act it will be tainted by the evil done to bring it about.  in the short term you may have done some good with your act of evil but what has it cost you? 

numbers 1 2 and 4 also reflect our 'real world' situations.  if a company or government unleashed a plauge of undead on the world it would not be seen as a good act.  even the creation of this plauge would be called evil no matter how 'good' the intentions for it were.  when mortals decide to play at being gods everything goes to shit.

[littha]

creating an undead creature is an evil act for several reasons. 

1 when you create undead you are enslaving them.  go look at any of the Create Undead spells.  they are created under your controll.  i would say that the enslavement of any creature is an evil act. 

2 when you create undead you are disturbing thier eternal rest.  you are yanking them out of their graves and placing them under your controll.  you might get around this by having people sell their bodies into service.  kind of like donating your body to sience except you get paid for it.  but you still have to look at the fact that their eternal rest is being disturbed and this is not a 'good' act.

3 using the Negative Energy to do the work.  absolute power corrupts absolutely.  it doesn't happen over night but it is a gradual effect.  this morality isn't imposed by the universe at random.  the quote 'i did evil and the universe knows' is a bit absurde.  you know what you did was evil.  and that guilt will affect you. 

4 the ends do not justify the means.  this goes along with number 3 but a little deeper.  even if you are trying to accomplish a good act it will be tainted by the evil done to bring it about.  in the short term you may have done some good with your act of evil but what has it cost you? 

numbers 1 2 and 4 also reflect our 'real world' situations.  if a company or government unleashed a plauge of undead on the world it would not be seen as a good act.  even the creation of this plauge would be called evil no matter how 'good' the intentions for it were.  when mortals decide to play at being gods everything goes to shit.

1. Bear in mind that some undead are completely mindless. Skeletons and Zombies arent enslaved any more than my PC is enslaved.
2. There is no suggestion anywhere that making a skeleton disturbs anyone's rest and as you will be doing this to your enemies anyway (who you killed in the first place) I doubt it matters.
3. Negative energy is neutral, it represents entropy and decay in the natural order. Saying absolute power corrupts means that there should be no Clerics/Druids/Wizards higher than level 17 or so...

Also bear in mind that most undead dont create spawn, it is literally impossible to make a zombie plague without animating every corpse yourself. Wights or Shadows sure but not all of them.

[whitetyger009]

creating an undead creature is an evil act for several reasons. 

1 when you create undead you are enslaving them.  go look at any of the Create Undead spells.  they are created under your controll.  i would say that the enslavement of any creature is an evil act. 

2 when you create undead you are disturbing thier eternal rest.  you are yanking them out of their graves and placing them under your controll.  you might get around this by having people sell their bodies into service.  kind of like donating your body to sience except you get paid for it.  but you still have to look at the fact that their eternal rest is being disturbed and this is not a 'good' act.

3 using the Negative Energy to do the work.  absolute power corrupts absolutely.  it doesn't happen over night but it is a gradual effect.  this morality isn't imposed by the universe at random.  the quote 'i did evil and the universe knows' is a bit absurde.  you know what you did was evil.  and that guilt will affect you. 

4 the ends do not justify the means.  this goes along with number 3 but a little deeper.  even if you are trying to accomplish a good act it will be tainted by the evil done to bring it about.  in the short term you may have done some good with your act of evil but what has it cost you? 

numbers 1 2 and 4 also reflect our 'real world' situations.  if a company or government unleashed a plauge of undead on the world it would not be seen as a good act.  even the creation of this plauge would be called evil no matter how 'good' the intentions for it were.  when mortals decide to play at being gods everything goes to shit.

1. Bear in mind that some undead are completely mindless. Skeletons and Zombies arent enslaved any more than my PC is enslaved.
2. There is no suggestion anywhere that making a skeleton disturbs anyone's rest and as you will be doing this to your enemies anyway (who you killed in the first place) I doubt it matters.
3. Negative energy is neutral, it represents entropy and decay in the natural order. Saying absolute power corrupts means that there should be no Clerics/Druids/Wizards higher than level 17 or so...

Also bear in mind that most undead dont create spawn, it is literally impossible to make a zombie plague without animating every corpse yourself. Wights or Shadows sure but not all of them.

1 you can not justify enslavement.  the fact that you try means that you are violating #4 already

2 most religions, and everyone else, belive that once dead you are granted rest and making undead disturbs that rest.  if your in an undead state you are not dead and therefor not at rest.  there you go trying to justify it again.

3 you need to go back and read up on the negative energy plane.  The Negative Energy Plane is a barren, empty place, a void without end, and a place of empty, endless night. Worse, it is a needy greedy plane, sucking the life out of anything that is vulnerable. Heat, fire, and life itself are all drawn into the maw of this plane,
which always hungers for more. ... It is a dark, empty place, an eternal pit where a traveler can fall until the plane itself steals away all light and life.  destruction simply for the sake of destruction is an act of evil.  while the effects of the positive energy plane can be harmful they at least can create. 

[veekie]

Negative and positive energy being amoral is a big thing. They are elemental planes, not related to alignment at all. Entropy and destruction is needed every bit as much as growth and creation. Change only happens when both forces are applied.

[littha]

 

1 you can not justify enslavement.  the fact that you try means that you are violating #4 already

Would you consider a Golem enslaved? How about a Car or a Computer? Besides that I could justify enslavement, you might disagree with my justification but I could do it.

2 most religions, and everyone else, belive that once dead you are granted rest and making undead disturbs that rest.  if your in an undead state you are not dead and therefor not at rest.  there you go trying to justify it again.

Most religions do but saying everyone else is a little bit of a stretch. Besides that I would like evidence that animating a skeleton disturbs the soul. Would creating a flesh golem do the same?

3 you need to go back and read up on the negative energy plane.  The Negative Energy Plane is a barren, empty place, a void without end, and a place of empty, endless night. Worse, it is a needy greedy plane, sucking the life out of anything that is vulnerable. Heat, fire, and life itself are all drawn into the maw of this plane,
which always hungers for more. ... It is a dark, empty place, an eternal pit where a traveler can fall until the plane itself steals away all light and life.  destruction simply for the sake of destruction is an act of evil.  while the effects of the positive energy plane can be harmful they at least can create.

Just because it is not a nice place does not make it evil, negative energy is a primal force and is no more evil than Fire or Positive energy. The negative energy plane also has no alignment at all, unlike the abyss or hell.

[Captnq]

Would you consider a Golem enslaved? How about a Car or a Computer? Besides that I could justify enslavement, you might disagree with my justification but I could do it.

Look, just go HERE.

You?

You are the sorceress in pigtails. You delude yourself into thinking that the undead arn't evil. If the undead did exist under the rules of D&D, you too would one day wind up devoured by your own minions completely clueless of how evil and corrupt you really were.

Most religions do but saying everyone else is a little bit of a stretch. Besides that I would like evidence that animating a skeleton disturbs the soul. Would creating a flesh golem do the same?

I already presented that before. Read Back To My Previous Posts. Stop ignoring the facts already presented to you.

Just because it is not a nice place does not make it evil, negative energy is a primal force and is no more evil than Fire or Positive energy. The negative energy plane also has no alignment at all, unlike the abyss or hell.

It doesn't need an alignment because it has all the traits of evil.

THE OBJECTIVE APPROACH
This is the straightforward approach taken in the D&D game, and it is the one stressed in this book as well. From this frame of reference, evil can be judged objectively. The evil nature of a creature, act, or item isn’t relative to the person observing it; it just is evil or it isn’t. This clear-cut definition allows spells such as holy smite to work. Conversely, an objective definition of evil exists because the detect evil spell works. Want to know what’s evil? Don’t study a philosophy book, just watch who gets hurt when the cleric casts holy smite. Those creatures are evil. The things they do, generally speaking, are evil acts. If your character still isn’t certain, he can summon a celestial creature or cast a commune spell and simply ask, “Is this evil?” The higher powers are right there, ready to communicate.
The Player’s Handbook says, “ ‘Evil’ implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualm if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.” This objective approach to evil works well for fantasy roleplaying games. Evil is a thing that a hero can point at and know he must fight. An objective concept of evil allows players (and their characters) to avoid most ethical or moral quandaries, particularly the kinds that can derail a game session. If you run an adventure about fighting gnolls, you don’t normally want the entire session consumed by a philosophical debate about whether killing gnolls is a good thing or a bad thing.

And Under Evil Acts

EVIL ACTS

ANIMATING THE DEAD OR CREATING UNDEAD
Unliving corpses—corrupt mockeries of life and purity— are inherently evil. Creating them is one of the most heinous crimes against the world that a character can commit. Even if they are commanded to do something good, undead invariably bring negative energy into the world, which makes it a darker and more evil place. Many communities keep their graveyards behind high walls or even post guards to keep grave robbers out. Graverobbing is often a lucrative practice, since necromancers pay good coin for raw materials. Of course, battlefields are also popular places for grave-robbers—or for necromancers themselves—to seek corpses.

Here. Black-and-white. Undead = Evil.

Don't like it? Play a different game.

[littha]

Stop ignoring the facts already presented to you.