Why are Undead so hated?

[betrayor]

Well ,I think it depends on your game,I mean look at Ebberon where you are allowed to have whatever alignment regardless of the race.....
Also Libris Mortis had some good undead......
I think the "that all undead are evil" is mostly a guideline and for sure exceptions could be made.........

[Wrex]

Well ,I think it depends on your game,I mean look at Ebberon where you are allowed to have whatever alignment regardless of the race.....
Also Libris Mortis had some good undead......
I think the "that all undead are evil" is mostly a guideline and for sure exceptions could be made.........

I'm 90% sure that guy is quoting the BoVD, which famously stated that Sadomasochists are as bad as hitler.

[Endarire]

I've seen the arguments.  Let's not turn this thread into an alignment debate or flame war.  And thanks for keeping things civil so far!

Y'all have provided rules-supported answers.  However, I'm glad this is a game where I, as GM, can ignore the parts I don't like.

WotC is more about, "Kill and fight and loot because it's fun!" instead of "Why are we doing this, again?"

[Captnq]

Y'all have provided rules-supported answers.  However, I'm glad this is a game where I, as GM, can ignore the parts I don't like.

WotC is more about, "Kill and fight and loot because it's fun!" instead of "Why are we doing this, again?"

Ah, see that's the problem. You ignore the parts you don't like. Not just the rules, but what people tell you.

Here is a perfect example:

Stop ignoring the facts already presented to you.

 

See? That right there.

Okay, here's the truth. The undead don't exist. This entire argument is moot.

But we are dealing in hypotheticals. We have a shared and agreed upon paradigm. That paradigm is set down by WotC for d20 3.5. If you wish to discuss something else, you need to indicate that you are using a different paradigm. My statements are based on that shared group paradigm. My statements, within that framework, are fact.

littha thinks it's a joke.

That why we cannot see eye to eye. I, and everyone else who accepts that undead are evil, is using the same paradigm. You and littha have decided to ignore the d20 3.5 paradigm of objective morality. No matter how much you may want it to change, d20 is objective Morality. There is a section for varient rules involving Subjective morality, but that is not cannon.

If you wish to discuss subjective morality, that's fine. Start a new thread and state up front that you wish to argue the point using a completely different world few. I'd be happy to discuss it.

But I find it annoying when people just ignore facts because they think the facts can be interperted differently. There is no other way to see the rules under d20 3.5. Period. Sorry. Start a new thread asking about undead in a subjective universe, but stop trying to change the fundimental laws of dungeons and dragons.

The original question is: Why are Undead so Hated?

This question has been answered many times. You keep trying verbal gymnastics to try and convince people that undead arn't so bad. You have failed to convince me that I should like the undead, and I'm a damn open minded guy. If you can't convince ME,  I seriously doubt you could convince more then oh... 1% of any given average nation in most D&D settings that undead aren't so bad.

If you can't convince me, you sure as hell can't convince a dirt farmer. And Thus, THAT is why undead are hated.

[Libertad]

I'm 90% sure that guy is quoting the BoVD, which famously stated that Sadomasochists are as bad as hitler.

Monte Cook continued with the "S&M is evil" message in his version of World of Darkness.  The soul of the Marquis de Sade became a vampire and now runs his own cult of Saw-style torture-killers.  From what I know of Marquis, he was a sexual deviant for his time who loved sodomy, prostitutes, and fantasized about whips and chains, but I don't think he got off on killing people.

Normally this wouldn't get my attention, as Marquis promoted freedom with no moral limits, although I began to see a trend when I read MCWOD.

[littha]

My problem isn't so much your argument, Undead are (generally) Evil . My problem is how you are conducting it, circular logic, analogies of things you have done in a game and pop culture videos and quotes are not all that convincing and don't really add that much to the conversation. Further your continued insistence that the negative energy plane is evil hurts your credibility further.

I requested proof that creating a zombie directly affected a creatures soul, not just rendered its body unresurrectable akin to being used as a component of a flesh golem. You have provided no evidence of this in the whole thread.

Honestly posting huge walls of text and then telling people to go back through them if pressed for supporting evidence is no way to bring people to your side.

[nijineko]

if by proof, rules text are meant, i don't think there is much.

obviously, as has already been covered: the create undead spell has the evil descriptor. my understanding is that makes it an evil act to cast it, which may or may not be considered logical, but that seems to be the rule.

the section on spell descriptors even says that most descriptors have little game effect, by which i construe to mean rules / mechanical effect. they basically limit who can and cannot cast those spells.

that seems to be the only rule about it i can find quickly. (ie: 3 minutes searching. ^^)

[veekie]

There are naturally arising, non-evil undead as well. Ghosts for one, zombies and skeletons for another. Others meanwhile have 'usually evil' which denotes a level of evil similar to monstrous humanoids. So they aren't sweepingly evil by definition.

It seems to me the PROCESS is generally evil(as it uses a spell that draws in part upon objective evil as per the descriptor, an infection or requires some great trauma, all commonly inflicted upon unwilling subjects.), the results MAY be evil(depending on variety) and the motives mixed. Most necromancers raise the dead because its useful, rather than because they really enjoy the suffering of a soul which they have no mechanical means to detect.

[skydragonknight]

MM Monsters by Fluff Text. Ignoring the alignment entries and just gauging them by their descriptions.
Ratings based PURELY by descriptions.
 
Rating:
Same as in life << Neutral or Evil << Usually Evil << Yeah, Evil << Hardcore Evil

(click to show/hide)

"An Allip is the spectral remains of someone driven to suicide by a madness that afflicted it in life. It craves only revenge and unrelentingly pursues those who tormented it in life and pushed it over the brink."
Yeah, Evil Revenge leads to the dark side.

"Bodaks are the undead remnants of humanoids who have been destroyed by the touch of absolute evil."
Yeah, Evil Implied that whatever killed them was so evil it corrupted them.

"Devourers are massive beings every bit as evil as they look."
Yeah, Evil Not over-the-top evil, but evil enough.

"Ghosts are the spectral remains of intelligent beings who, for one reason or another, cannot rest easily in their graves."
Same as in life They weren't dragged back from the afterlife kicking and screaming...they simply never made it there to begin with.

"Ghouls haunt graveyards, battlefields, and other places rich with the carrion they hunger for. These terrible creatures lurk wherever the stench of death hangs heavy, ready to devour the unwary."
Neutral or Evil Not really pure evil. More like "you look tasty". Still, makes being Good impossible.

"A Lich is an undead spellcaster, usually a wizard or sorcerer but sometimes a cleric or other spellcaster, who has used its magical powers to unnaturally extend its life. As a rule, these creatures are scheming and, some day insane.
Edit: Under Liches as characters: "The process of becoming a lich is unspeakably evil and can only be undertaken by a willing character."
Usually Evil[/b If you weren't evil prior to becoming a lich, whatever you have to do for the process would probably push you over the edge. Though the rare lich might drift back to neutral over the years, especially if it chooses to withdraw from the world and pursue its studies, becoming uncaring like Boccob.

"Mohrgs are the animated corpses of mass murderers and similar villains who died without atoning for their crimes. Tortured by an all-consuming hatred of living things, they long to live again."
Yeah, Evil "You must be this evil to become this undead."

"Mummies are preserved corpses animated through the auspices of dark desert gods best forgotten."
Same as in life Well, you worked for a bad dude back in the day and earned a pretty sweet retirement package, but who knows? Maybe you're not such a bad guy yourself.

"Nightshades are powerful undead composed of equal parts darkness and absolute evil."
Hardcore Evil Not just a behavioral inclination, they are structurally made of evil itself!

"Shadows are creatures of sentient darkness, hating life and light with equal fervor. ... Natural enemies of all that live, shadows are aggressive and predatory."
Yeah, Evil While not as motivated as some things here, they routinely kill based more on hatred than nourishment, making them evil.

"Skeletons are the animated bones of the dead, mindless automatons that obey the orders of their evil masters."
Neutral or Evil Probably closer to neutral, even though they perform evil acts frequently by the nature of their typical masters.

"Spectres are incorporeal undead often mistaken for ghosts. They haunt the places where they died, retaining their sentience but now hating all living things."
Usually Evil All the hate of shadows but without predatory habits. If you leave them alone, they'll leave you alone. But if you enter their territory, don't expect them to be good hosts.

(Vampires) "Forever anchored to their coffins and the unholy earth of their graves, these nocturnal predators scheme constantly to strengthen themselves and fill the world with their foul progeny."
Hardcore Evil Actively seeking the enslavement of others, turning bodies and souls into your puppets to further your power is a higher class of evil than merely being a homicidal maniac. A bit like Mind Flayers, in a way.

"Wights are undead creatures given a semblance of life through sheer vengeance and hatred."
Yeah, Evil Like giving up your eternal rest for revenge isn't evil?

"Wraiths are incorporeal creatures born of evil and darkness."
Yeah, Evil Born of evil, but not composed of it. Evil less pure than a Nightshade's, but evil enough.

"Zombies are corpses reanimated through dark and sinister magic."
Neutral or Evil Like skeletons, more neutral than anything. The creation process may give them an instinct for evil, but that's pretty unclear so they stay in this category.

So 11/16 are evil enough to be worth hating by Mr. Righteous. Ghoul is nasty enough, he can be hated by just about anyone even if he's just a hungry guy. Skeletons and Zombies...you'd probably hate the master more, if he's been misusing them. More likely to be hated by druids and those valuing the natural order. The 2/16 remaining don't have a nature worth hating, but might have actions worth hating, depending on motivations. Best to exercise caution with them.

[SneeR]

Why are undead so hated? Stereotyping and unfair generalizations, of course.

The most common undead is obviously the zombie/skelton. Well, those undead need to be made out of a preexisting corpse. People tend to get frustrated when necromancers go digging through Grandma's graveyard plot that they paid so much to procure. They become doubly so when Grandma starts trying to eat them. Seriously, who wants to

That this is the most common experience with the undead means it becomes the generalization that commoners know about. Now all undead are violations of Grandma who you just got over mourning.

[skydragonknight]

So if something wants to eat your brain its unfair to hate them?

[oslecamo]

"A Lich is an undead spellcaster, usually a wizard or sorcerer but sometimes a cleric or other spellcaster, who has used its magical powers to unnaturally extend its life. As a rule, these creatures are scheming and, some day insane.
Same as in life Power corrupts, sure, and good guys might not be comfy with the whole walking skeleton look, but anyone with the know-how can become one.

You forgot a key point of the lich:

The process of becoming a lich is unspeakably evil and can be undertaken only by a willing character.

It offers no details, and it doesn't need to really. You have to do something really wicked to turn into a lich, and you're doing it of your own will, unlike the undeads that were corrupted by an exterior source. You're knowingly corrupting yourself, which I believe counts as top evil.

Pretty good job in the other undeads tough!

[betrayor]

"A Lich is an undead spellcaster, usually a wizard or sorcerer but sometimes a cleric or other spellcaster, who has used its magical powers to unnaturally extend its life. As a rule, these creatures are scheming and, some day insane.
Same as in life Power corrupts, sure, and good guys might not be comfy with the whole walking skeleton look, but anyone with the know-how can become one.

You forgot a key point of the lich:

The process of becoming a lich is unspeakably evil and can be undertaken only by a willing character.

It offers no details, and it doesn't need to really. You have to do something really wicked to turn into a lich, and you're doing it of your own will, unlike the undeads that were corrupted by an exterior source. You're knowingly corrupting yourself, which I believe counts as top evil.

Pretty good job in the other undeads tough!

Yes,but there are good liches as shown in Libris Mortis....

[oslecamo]

Yes,but there are good liches as shown in Libris Mortis....

Specifically noted as a variant, with diferent game rules and everything.

And then you get lichfiends (but no lichcelestials). And dozens of new very definetely evil undeads.

[betrayor]

Yes,but there are good liches as shown in Libris Mortis....

Specifically noted as a variant, with diferent game rules and everything.

And then you get lichfiends (but no lichcelestials). And dozens of new very definetely evil undeads.

Of course,I never argued that the vast majority of the undead are not evil......
I am just saying that within the rules non-evil undead are possible, for example any evil undead subject to Sanctify the Wicked will become good.....

[littha]

It is also possible for any intelligent undead to just be good, we have had good demons and evil angels which are literally made from evil or good.

[oslecamo]

It is also possible for any intelligent undead to just be good, we have had good demons and evil angels which are literally made from evil or good.

I recall one succubus paladin, but I don't recall any evil angel that hasn't gained the evil subtype (aka devils).

[littha]

A Planatar called Avamerin in Elder Evils, worships Sertrous. Still has the Good subtype.

One thing I noted in the post above was that being aggressive and predatory imply evil, there are a lot of predatory creatures out there and I am sure they are not all evil.

[skydragonknight]

You forgot a key point of the lich:

The process of becoming a lich is unspeakably evil and can be undertaken only by a willing character.

Oh! I did miss that, and it should definitely be counter towards 'fluff analysis'. Edited my post. Thanks!

[Endarire]

Monsters of Faerun has good liches.