Encounter Level for Overpowered Party

[parinho7]

We play a campaign where all player take turns on dming, This time it's my turn and I want to make an encounter that will push the players to their limits. The problem is we all have equipment that is above the recommended for our levels and also some others like to experiment and gave us some custom items and abilities that make this more complicated.

The party is:
Sorcerer(5)/MotAO(2)
Barbarian(1)/Fighter(5)/FB(1)
Duskblade(8)
Hexblade(8)

-The Barbarian has a +2 spiked chain and a +3 breastplate and also the complete set of x of Valor items from Complete Champion.

-The Duskblade has a drake helm with wraithstrike on it and a +2 whirlwind weapon. He also has an item that gives him a rage-like ability that increases dexterity instead of strength and some other dexterous combat bonuses that I am unaware of.

-The hexblade is a more complicated matter, he was offered smite evil in place in return of his curses. He Has a +2 defending stunning elven lightblade and a +1 elven thinblade (exotic wp for free), he also has an item that 1/day produces a mist that damages 2d6 per round in a 20 ft squar everyone exept himself and a kneepad that allows him for 5 rounds to have dr 10/- and other bonuses for 5 rounds. He also has SR 13.

-The sorcerer is mine and I have the freedom to give him some equipment. I haven't decide yet what it will be but obviously my selection will keep up with the items the other members have.

My question is, what is the appropriate encounter level for these guys? Also, I am using http://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/ to define that level. Is it trustworthy? I currently have an encounter level of 13 but it seems like it wont be very difficult for them but I can't be sure. Maybe it's harder than I think and I'll end up killing everyone. What is the encounter level you recommend? Thanks in advance.

[InnaBinder]

Appropriate encounter level is going to vary wildly based upon which creatures make up that encounter, and what their capabilities are relative to what the party's capabilities are.  In this instance, it looks like your party is still fairly ground-based and melee-centric, which means flyers with ranged attacks of any sort could seriously crimp their style, unless they've got additional abilities not listed.

[muktidata]

Honestly, your Sorceror could kill all of those other characters if he was geared correctly. They're not particularly powerful. Put someone 20 feet above them and see what they do. Put down rough terrain. Have a large or bigger tentacle beast grapple them. That party requires very little to challenge them. And as stated, they have no way of dealing with flyers or ranged attacks.

[Endarire]

Want to push player characters to their limits and aren't sure what to do?  Include a creature or 2 per PC with the CR about equal to their ECL.

Or just give 'em an optimized Wizard or two and watch 'em squirm (and probably die).

[nijineko]

my favorite way of really testing a group is with lots of little creatures. a mob of bitty creatures with reach weapons and aid another tactics can pull down and overwhelm much higher level characters. even worse, a massive swarm of army ants.

in some ways the worst of all is a pit full of whip cream. too thick to breath or speak vocal components, too opaque to see through it, thick enough to interfere with gestures and retrieving spell components, too thin to swim in, too slick to climb out of... if you are really mean, put a self-resetting dispel trap somewhere nearby to knock out any spell casting in or around it.

[Mushroom]

pit full of whip cream

I want to make a female PC joke, but I'm sleepy.

[nijineko]

generally speaking, such pits are too deep for viewing pleasure. and if you can do x-ray vision, you don't strictly need the pit in the first place. if one goes for those sorts of things.

[phaedrusxy]

pit full of whip cream

I want to make a female PC joke, but I'm sleepy.

Don't forget the otyughs/illithids/giant mutant squid!

[nijineko]

pit full of whip cream

I want to make a female PC joke, but I'm sleepy.

Don't forget the otyughs/illithids/giant mutant squid!

giant lobsters, in memory of grimtooth. most people like lobsters in a creamy sauce, right?

[Kethrian]

Apple pie golem?

[Twilightwyrm]

Don't get me wrong, in a traditional fight these characters are most certainly going to be very effective. It would seem, however, that most any flying creature, even something as simple as a dragon, would give them problems, as absent your sorcerer casting fly on the entire party, which can in turn be dispelled, they will not be able to effectively engage the enemy (even if the Duskblade does have a few ranged spells). Also, since they like to engage in melee, apparently, any ranged skirmishers should be effective.
Alternatively, send a convoy of hags. Unless your sorcerer bothered to take See Invisibility (probably unlikely), a well played hag convoy can challenge a party a few levels higher than their given challenge rating. (Especially if they have a Hag Eye and some minions)

[nijineko]

dragons? simple?

try them on a pixie first.

a hood pixie.

[Endarire]

There was a Simple Q&A thread called Lucid Dreaming Ghost Pixie Hood Edition.

Perhaps will o wisps will also be a challenge.  They're naturally invisible and shock people!

[skydragonknight]

I'll second Will-o-Wisps. Will give the Wraith-striking Duskblade a surprise to learn their high AC is also their touch AC. The occasional Dragon isn't bad either.

[parinho7]

Thanks everyone for the answers. The tips on flying opponents were helpful, I decided how the battlefield should be and what the opponents will be. Please tell me if you think the following scenario will be appropriate for the party.

They will be in a demiplane where no natural source of light exists. Conjuration(summoning) and Conjuration(teleportation) are forbidden.
By the time they arrive their opponents will be there and the conflict will start immediately.
The two groups will be on two cliffs separated by a bottomless chasm.
The opponents will be a 8-10 level Sorcerer who will cast an AoE spell and then leave (I'm thinking of black tentacles by maybe it is too harsh).
A 8 level cleric accompanied by 6-10 death knight warriors (ECL 6 or 7 each) who will cast desecrate and reached inflict wounds and other controlling spells. The death knights will have a chance of falling into the chasm so if the battle gets to hard some of them might not be so careful!
A sneaky spellthief(5) who will strike after the first wave of death knights.
And 3-4 black abishais attacking from above.

According to the encounter calculator this will be a level 13 encounter with overpowering difficulty (without calculating the sorcerer). What do you think about it? I don't want to kill them, just to give them a very hard time. Any recommendations?

[InnaBinder]

Thanks everyone for the answers. The tips on flying opponents were helpful, I decided how the battlefield should be and what the opponents will be. Please tell me if you think the following scenario will be appropriate for the party.

They will be in a demiplane where no natural source of light exists. Conjuration(summoning) and Conjuration(teleportation) are forbidden.
By the time they arrive their opponents will be there and the conflict will start immediately.
The two groups will be on two cliffs separated by a bottomless chasm.
The opponents will be a 8-10 level Sorcerer who will cast an AoE spell and then leave (I'm thinking of black tentacles by maybe it is too harsh).
A 8 level cleric accompanied by 6-10 death knight warriors (ECL 6 or 7 each) who will cast desecrate and reached inflict wounds and other controlling spells. The death knights will have a chance of falling into the chasm so if the battle gets to hard some of them might not be so careful!
A sneaky spellthief(5) who will strike after the first wave of death knights.
And 3-4 black abishais attacking from above.

According to the encounter calculator this will be a level 13 encounter with overpowering difficulty (without calculating the sorcerer). What do you think about it? I don't want to kill them, just to give them a very hard time. Any recommendations?

I recommend you tell the players to bring backup characters.  This setup looks like a TPK, the only method of avoidance being through the Sorcerer/MoAO (DMPC?) going all Neo on everything, which most players I've known would be less than happy about.

[Waazraath]

Sorry if this is a bit off topic... but fighter 5!?!? 

[parinho7]

Thanks everyone for the answers. The tips on flying opponents were helpful, I decided how the battlefield should be and what the opponents will be. Please tell me if you think the following scenario will be appropriate for the party.

They will be in a demiplane where no natural source of light exists. Conjuration(summoning) and Conjuration(teleportation) are forbidden.
By the time they arrive their opponents will be there and the conflict will start immediately.
The two groups will be on two cliffs separated by a bottomless chasm.
The opponents will be a 8-10 level Sorcerer who will cast an AoE spell and then leave (I'm thinking of black tentacles by maybe it is too harsh).
A 8 level cleric accompanied by 6-10 death knight warriors (ECL 6 or 7 each) who will cast desecrate and reached inflict wounds and other controlling spells. The death knights will have a chance of falling into the chasm so if the battle gets to hard some of them might not be so careful!
A sneaky spellthief(5) who will strike after the first wave of death knights.
And 3-4 black abishais attacking from above.

According to the encounter calculator this will be a level 13 encounter with overpowering difficulty (without calculating the sorcerer). What do you think about it? I don't want to kill them, just to give them a very hard time. Any recommendations?

I recommend you tell the players to bring backup characters.  This setup looks like a TPK, the only method of avoidance being through the Sorcerer/MoAO (DMPC?) going all Neo on everything, which most players I've known would be less than happy about.

So what should I do? I am not changing the monsters because there is a reason I chose them but I can mess with their numbers and their levels. But I am pretty sure that the death knights will fall very easy since their HP are less than 40. The barbarian will bring down two at a time with cleave and don't forget that the duskblade has a whirling weapon.

I'm intended to have the abishais come down and fight on melee once the death knights are gone, so I won't be using the most clever tactics if the battle becomes unbeatable.

But I have to mention that when the players were 5 level I put them against a Beguiler(3), a Spirit Shaman(4), a Barbarian(4) a Barbarian(2) and 2 Warrior(2). This encounter was stated as very difficult by the calculator and I ended up doubling their HP in order to have a decent battle. Also the sorcerer wasn't there.

[skydragonknight]

If it's a numbers issue, then divide the forces into waves. Half half the Death Knights there initially and the other half arrive on round 3 (give or take a round depending on how much ass the party is kicking).

Not too sure on the AoE spell. If it's not going to be factored into the EL than it shouldn't be big. Maybe something relatively weak but with a tactical use. Wall of Fire, for example or Obscuring Mist. Get them used to the idea of dealing with spells in this encounter and slowly step up the threat level of casters as they catch on and adapt in future encounters.