Shadow Creature's Shadow Blend: Total Concealment = ?

[ksbsnowowl]

Shadow Blend (Su): In any conditions other than full daylight, a shadow creature can disappear into the shadows, giving it total concealment. Artificial illumination, even a light or continual flame spell, does not negate this ability, but a daylight spell will.

Total Concealment

If you have line of effect to a target but not line of sight he is considered to have total concealment from you. You can’t attack an opponent that has total concealment, though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. A successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total concealment has a 50% miss chance (instead of the normal 20% miss chance for an opponent with concealment).

You can’t execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with total concealment, even if you know what square or squares the opponent occupies.

So, a shadow creature can always attempt Hide checks, because he has concealment, and that may prevent you from even knowing where he is.  If he fails his Hide check vs. your Spot, you do or don't know which square he is in?  And if you do know, you still get a 50% miss chance, can't AoO or Sneak Attack, (or coup de grace?), etc?

Or am I reading this wrong... is it effectively as if someone who can see through magical fog is attacking you through a Fog Cloud?  You literally don't have any clue where the shadow creature is so long as he moves after he attacks? (If he attacked you and didn't move after, you should be able to determine which adjacent square the attack came from).

[Ithamar]

Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway.

Actually he does not need to make hide checks.  And yes, anything directed at him will have a 50% miss chance, and no AoO's or sneak attack.

Hence why shadow creatures with Darkstalker are so impossible to find without something like Mindsight or Lifesense.

However, he still might be making noise, so a good listen check can pinpoint which square he is in.  If you beat his move silent check by 20 or more, you can figure out his square.

[ksbsnowowl]

Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway.

Actually he does not need to make hide checks.  And yes, anything directed at him will have a 50% miss chance, and no AoO's or sneak attack.

Hence why shadow creatures with Darkstalker are so impossible to find without something like Mindsight or Lifesense.

However, he still might be making noise, so a good listen check can pinpoint which square he is in.  If you beat his move silent check by 20 or more, you can figure out his square.

Holy crap, I'd never realized the power of that ability.  The closest one to it I had ever used was with Dark Ones (Fiend Folio), but that was a 40% miss chance, so you could still target them.  That's one amazing "unintended" consequence of "simplifying" the cover and concealment rules in 3.5...

So, even after attacking, the quasits will not be able to be pinpointed to a square by the PC's.... wow.

Even though it's not what the rules allow, I'll probably allow each attacked PC a spot check vs the attacking quasit's hide check after each turn the quasit attacks.  I won't be imposing the -20 to hide though (a la the sniping rules).  Average hide check by the quasit is a 26; the PC would have to get a 46 (on average) to pinpoint the square the quasit is in.

Wow, 9 of these things in a gestalt EL 9 encounter for my 9th level party...  They are going to hate me.

On the bright side, each advanced (4 HD) shadow creature quasit only has 10 hit points... (and fast healing 2, Cold resist 9, Fire resist 10, evasion...)

Edit: Though, this rule from invisibility helps:

If an invisible creature strikes a character, the character struck still knows the location of the creature that struck him (until, of course, the invisible creature moves). The only exception is if the invisible creature has a reach greater than 5 feet. In this case, the struck character knows the general location of the creature but has not pinpointed the exact location.

So, unless the quasits are smart and 5-foot-stepping (though they'll have to usually use those to enter a PC's square), the PC's will know after each attack that the quasit is in the PC's square with him.  That makes it much more manageable.  Of course, if a PC enters a quasit's square (since the PC can't see it), then the quasit could attack and move away (not provoking an AoO).  And pretty much if the PC's move at all, they'll provoke from the quasits, since they can't see where they are.

[Ithamar]

You could be really evil and just give the quasits Flyby Attack. 

Or the Low-Blow feat from Races of Faerun (though I doubt they can meet the pre-reqs).  As a full round action you enter the square of a foe at least 1 size bigger than you and make a single attack.  Your foe is flat-footed (not just denied DEX!) to the attack.  The movement provokes an AoO, but with total concealment, who cares?

Though if any of your PC's have daylight prepped (or other really, really bright light source), they may be able to make the encounter much easier.

[Kethrian]

It's precisely this kind of stuff that I take Dawnburst for....

[ksbsnowowl]

To the best of my knowledge, none of my PC's have ever prepped Daylight.  Which is really interesting, given the fact that right now they are exploring the equivalent of the Svalbard archipelago within one month of the winter solstice (ie - polar night).

The flow of the game session precluded me from running the quasit encounter tonight, but the Big Bad at the location they are getting ready to assault is a shadow creature red abishai, so this info is all good to know.  And there is the return trip, too...

Maybe on the way back they won't be quite so paranoid, and will actually have light sources present on their boat, instead of skimming through the darkness for days on end.

[ksbsnowowl]

Just to prepare myself in case my PC's are clever, what spells would allow someone to locate or otherwise perceive a shadow creature?

Daylight: negates the effect, obviously
See Invisibility: nope
True Seeing: I think this would help, yes?
Darkvision: not gonna help you
Ebon Eyes (SpC): ? - allows you to see through magical darkness... ?
Blindsight: yep, you've got him nailed
Blindsense/Tremorsense/Mindsight: you can determine his square, but still have a 50% miss chance

Are those interpreted correctly?  Anything I forgot?

[Kethrian]

Glitterdust: -40 to hide
Dawnburst: total concealment is reduced to concealment, glows bright as a torch for hide penalties.

[ksbsnowowl]

Glitterdust: -40 to hide
Dawnburst: total concealment is reduced to concealment, glows bright as a torch for hide penalties.

The problem with those, the shadow creature has total concealment, and so can't even be spotted.  Glitterdust doesn't help when the foe doesn't even have to make a hide check.  It's not that he is invisible, magical shadow is actually concealing him (and thus the glitter too).

The second one doesn't produce enough light to overcome the supernatural shadow

In any conditions other than full daylight, a shadow creature can disappear into the shadows, giving it total concealment. Artificial illumination, even a light or continual flame spell, does not negate this ability, but a daylight spell will.

Dawnburst isn't full daylight or its magical equivalent, thus the creature still has total concealment.  Doesn't it?

[ariasderros]

*snip*
True Seeing: I think this would help, yes?
*snip*
Are those interpreted correctly?  Anything I forgot?

No.

You confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are. The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things. Further, the subject can focus its vision to see into the Ethereal Plane (but not into extradimensional spaces). The range of true seeing conferred is 120 feet.

True seeing, however, does not penetrate solid objects. It in no way confers X-ray vision or its equivalent. It does not negate concealment, including that caused by fog and the like. True seeing does not help the viewer see through mundane disguises, spot creatures who are simply hiding, or notice secret doors hidden by mundane means. In addition, the spell effects cannot be further enhanced with known magic, so one cannot use true seeing through a crystal ball or in conjunction with clairaudience/clairvoyance.

Material Component
An ointment for the eyes that costs 250 gp and is made from mushroom powder, saffron, and fat.

Booyah, Shadow Creature > True Seeing. It's ability is even specifically called out as such. Still, give creature Darkstalker just to be safe. 

[Ithamar]

Personally I think Glitterdust (and maybe Faerie Fire) should both help.  At the very least they will let you know what square the creature is in, even if it has total concealment.  You're basically painting the thing with magical, glow-in-the dark sparkles (or flames).

Then there are more mundane ways.  Like making it rain, as the concealed creature will still cause the rain water to be displaced.  Similar with fog and whatnot.  When you see a hole in the fog, that's where a creature is.  Though you'd probably need decent spot checks in both instances to notice stuff like that.

[ksbsnowowl]

Just thought of something that may impact my next game session.  Shadow Blend is a Supernatural ability.  Do Supernatural abilities show up to Detect magic (and thus Arcane Sight)?

I'm pretty sure they do, and they detect as "magic items" (using the caster level of the Su to determine the aura strength).  Thus, the creature's location would be visible to arcane sight so long as the creature is within 120 feet of the person with arcane sight.

This will be very beneficial to my PC's as one of them put up arcane sight near the end of last session (the session ended in the middle of combat).  The first round next session the shadow creature will show up.

So, arcane sight can be added to the list of things that help overcome shadow blend.  The shadow creature would still have total concealment, but at least the PC will know where he is, and that he is there.

[ariasderros]

Just thought of something that may impact my next game session.  Shadow Blend is a Supernatural ability.  Do Supernatural abilities show up to Detect magic (and thus Arcane Sight)?

I'm pretty sure they do, and they detect as "magic items" (using the caster level of the Su to determine the aura strength).  Thus, the creature's location would be visible to arcane sight so long as the creature is within 120 feet of the person with arcane sight.

This will be very beneficial to my PC's as one of them put up arcane sight near the end of last session (the session ended in the middle of combat).  The first round next session the shadow creature will show up.

So, arcane sight can be added to the list of things that help overcome shadow blend.  The shadow creature would still have total concealment, but at least the PC will know where he is, and that he is there.

Overcome Shadow Blend? yes.
Lead-lined clothing (CS lets you lead line cloth compartments for 10gp).
Magic Aura (technically only works on objects).
Nondetection.

All of these things and more can overcome Detect spells and their ilk.

[ksbsnowowl]

Just thought of something that may impact my next game session.  Shadow Blend is a Supernatural ability.  Do Supernatural abilities show up to Detect magic (and thus Arcane Sight)?

I'm pretty sure they do, and they detect as "magic items" (using the caster level of the Su to determine the aura strength).  Thus, the creature's location would be visible to arcane sight so long as the creature is within 120 feet of the person with arcane sight.

This will be very beneficial to my PC's as one of them put up arcane sight near the end of last session (the session ended in the middle of combat).  The first round next session the shadow creature will show up.

So, arcane sight can be added to the list of things that help overcome shadow blend.  The shadow creature would still have total concealment, but at least the PC will know where he is, and that he is there.

Overcome Shadow Blend? yes.
Lead-lined clothing (CS lets you lead line cloth compartments for 10gp).
Magic Aura (technically only works on objects).
Nondetection.

All of these things and more can overcome Detect spells and their ilk.

Oh, I'm not trying to find a way to screw over my PC's.  It's an honest coincidence that will work to their favor.  I just wanted to make sure that my realization was correct.

[ksbsnowowl]

So I ran the encounter tonight with the Shadow Creature Red Abishai, and my players were... unhappy, to say the least.
Two major bones of contention:

They think it is crap that Glitterdust doesn't work to show where the shadow creature is.  (Glitterdust outlines invisible things, and causes them to take a -40 on hide. It doesn't remove total concealment though, and total concealment means the shadow creature auto-succeeds on Hide checks.  And yes, the magical darkness prevents you from seeing the glittering motes, IMO.)

They think that they should always be able to see where the shadow creature is (ie - which square) because they should be able to see the "magical darkness" effect that is hiding him.  (They equate it with being able to see the sphere of shadow created by a Darkness spell.)

Hmmm...

That said, the Barb//Beguiler did chase him down for most of the session, having Arcane Sight cast on himself.

At the start of the next session, they are going to do a quick rummage for loot, then fly away, as the reinforcement boats are 4 rounds away.

[veekie]

Well, if they can see in nonmagical darkness, the case can be made for knowing the square at least.

[Kethrian]

I agree, if the magical darkness isn't hidden in natural darkness (or the PCs have darkvision), it should be quite visible.

[ksbsnowowl]

Two of the PC's had a Darkvision spell cast upon themselves, and the other three had Low-Light Vision.  The only light source was an aurora borealis occurring overhead at the time, providing light equivalent to a full moon.

[veekie]

Then yeah, the darkvision guys should be able to see the SPACE its in, but it'd still have total concealment. Thats plenty good to drop area attacks onto I guess.

[ksbsnowowl]

Then yeah, the darkvision guys should be able to see the SPACE its in, but it'd still have total concealment. Thats plenty good to drop area attacks onto I guess.

Well, most of the time one of the ones with darkvision was under the effects of a Wrack spell, and paralyzed/helpless/blind.  And his darkvision is only 60 ft.  The other one with darkvision wasn't near-by but once or twice, and once hit the abishai with an area dispel magic via verbal direction from the beguiler who could see where he was, but didn't have many opportunities after that (he was commanded to swim for shore.)

One of the other players with Low-Light Vision tagged the abishai several times with Fireball... except he couldn't see that the fireball was having no effect, because devils are immune to fire...

A google search of "shadow blend" shows me there really is no consensus at all on how this ability works, and it's even a core mechanic (Shadow Mastiff's have it).