Author Topic: About CR and EXP ... and everything else  (Read 23574 times)

Offline veekie

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Re: About CR and EXP
« Reply #40 on: May 20, 2012, 06:16:19 AM »
Does the weasel have to return to its master to gain another touch spell ? Does the master have to cast it as normal, but on the weasel ?
What other familiars are there that are good (or better than a weasel) for touch attacks? what spells are good? the wiz can use spell lv3 and has a +1 focus on evocation spells.
(Ghoul touch, shocking grasp, grease on a weapon maybe...)
The familiar needs to 'load' a new touch spell each time by returning to the master. Keep in mind that most familiars have no reach, and thus MUST provoke to deliver the spell unless it has surprise or cover. If you aren't in a hurry for the spell to hit you can always cut the lights and use their animal senses for targeting though. Most of them have scent. Generally you want something debilitating, or to hit people with effects they don't expect. If you're using remote deliver, its better to use spectral hand or the like.
Quote
An evil/ chaos domain cleric has a+1CL for evil/chaos spells. Does that affect a monster summon with that alignment? I guess not, but I wanted to ask. ^^
It does. A summon spell with that alignment has the appropriate descriptors. All it really adds to is just spell duration though, which might be useful at level 1(since it'd be kinda dumb to spend 1 round to summon a creature that acts only once), but not so much later.
Quote
Another thing that came to my mind: Stacking effects. What do you allow to stack and what doesnt ? Like Ring of prot + mage armor + haste + some cleric buff
As already answered, look to the bonus types. Same type always overlaps(except for dodge bonuses, which act like untyped), different types always stack, and untyped stacks with everything except its own source.
So Ring of Prot(+1 Deflection), Mage Armor(+4 Armor) and Haste(+1 Dodge) stacks. If you casted Protection from Evil on top(+2 Deflection), you get a total of +2 deflection bonus vs evil, but only +1 from your ring of protection otherwise.
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
It's a god-eat-god world.

Procrastination is the thief of time; Year after year it steals, till all are fled,
And to the mercies of a moment leaves; The vast concerns of an eternal scene.

Offline Dwarfi

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Re: About CR and EXP
« Reply #41 on: May 20, 2012, 02:17:14 PM »
@Oslecamo: Thanks for the link, I will see if I will use that method or the one from Veekie.
@Veekie: Thanks again for the help.

For now I read a little ahead in the book and there are SOME good encounters, but then there is so much trash. so I put some time into bulking some beast up a notch.
Shadow animals from the shadow plane... well, the way they are described in the book they surely have some nice feats, like evasion, mirror image 1/day or 9/10 concealment when in shadows, which is easy to do, as they only appear in a giant cave.

but the stats are again so weak that they cant really do anything, so I changed most of them into dire shadow beast. Should be a little more entertaining.

And I am working on some special encounter that I will make up myself.
A "Gazhnet" you could call it some kind of undead construct. The spirit and body of a former human king, reshaped into some kind of magical undead in the shape of a metal like human.
They dont appear in the book, but they are described as magic eaters of some kind.

The only one ever mentioned is called the Stormbringer. So I thought about making him a cleric of fitting domains, storm, wind and cold.
With DR10/fire maybe
As I have designed him so far he is more of a very persistant caster. He doesnt really do hit attacks, but can do touchattacks to cast chilling metal or stuff like that.
He can use all domain spells, but doesnt have the regular cleric spells.

I basically want him to be able to take on an entire group of buffed up Lv10-11 pcs.
I thought about giving him some way to actually "eat" magic.

Offline ksbsnowowl

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Re: About CR and EXP
« Reply #42 on: May 20, 2012, 06:31:19 PM »

Shadow animals from the shadow plane... well, the way they are described in the book they surely have some nice feats, like evasion, mirror image 1/day or 9/10 concealment when in shadows, which is easy to do, as they only appear in a giant cave.

but the stats are again so weak that they cant really do anything, so I changed most of them into dire shadow beast. Should be a little more entertaining.
The Shadow Creature template was updated to 3.5 in Lords of Madness.  They no longer gain 9/10 concealment (with the associated 40% miss chance).  They now gain total concealment in anything other than full daylight (or daylight spell).

Quote
Total Concealment

If you have line of effect to a target but not line of sight he is considered to have total concealment from you. You can’t attack an opponent that has total concealment, though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. A successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total concealment has a 50% miss chance (instead of the normal 20% miss chance for an opponent with concealment).

You can’t execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with total concealment, even if you know what square or squares the opponent occupies.

Also, check out my recent Q&A thread on shadow creatures:
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4992.msg71082#msg71082

Offline Dwarfi

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Re: About CR and EXP
« Reply #43 on: May 21, 2012, 06:04:29 AM »
@ksbsnowowl
I did, thanks for the update on the concealment.

I wonder how the group will fight a dire shadow bear or panther. ^^
Right now I am reading through Osecamos mob guide, but I have some problems understanding and using it. (See my post in the guide)

Offline ksbsnowowl

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Re: About CR and EXP
« Reply #44 on: May 21, 2012, 09:35:18 AM »
@ksbsnowowl
I did, thanks for the update on the concealment.

I wonder how the group will fight a dire shadow bear or panther. ^^
Well, if a PC is being grappled by the bear (improved grab and all), then the PC's will at least know one square in which the bear is located, so they can attack that, garnering only the 50% miss chance.

The big problem comes in when the shadow creature uses more hit-and-run tactics, because the shadow creature auto-succeeds on Hide checks.

As stated in my thread, Arcane Sight will locate the creature's square, and obviously daylight negates it, so it is doable, but the PC's need to be ready for it.

Offline Dwarfi

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Re: About CR and EXP
« Reply #45 on: May 22, 2012, 05:17:15 AM »
Still preparing stuff. Some heavy encounters for later:
If the group decides to rob the palace of the goblins:
1. There is a statue of the "iron one" if it gets defiled, every member of the group gets a "bestow curse" spell.
2. If they decide to break in and take the ancient items (they are holy for the goblins) a goblin shaped iron golem awakens. As it is goblin shaped it might be a little weaker/smaller than a real Iron golem, but should still be a formidable opponent.
3. If the goblins of the city get to know about the thiefery, they focus all resources to regain the items.  As every goblin would immediately recognize them.

For example they could shoot an urn with a trapped demon at the group (with a catapult) What demon/monster  would you suggest? A beholder maybe?
They would use the demon too when the group manages to slash through most of the army and enters the palace placa.

If they actually manage to leave the city with the items, the goblins will try other things. Curses, mercenarys, assasins ...
-------

Another nice idea: A night hag: disguised as a female human. (shape shifted?)
She could be met in the outer caves or imprisoned by the goblins, which would make her disguise as an captive refugee or slave even more believable. And during one of the following nights she starts haunting one of the pcs. Not immediately, as that would be too obvious.
If it goes well, they might take a while until they find out what actually happend. ^^
« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 05:24:00 AM by Dwarfi »

Offline veekie

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Re: About CR and EXP
« Reply #46 on: May 22, 2012, 12:56:38 PM »
For example they could shoot an urn with a trapped demon at the group (with a catapult) What demon/monster  would you suggest? A beholder maybe?
They would use the demon too when the group manages to slash through most of the army and enters the palace plazza.
Not quite as interesting for a level 9 group. Beholders are pretty much 200% offense, with no defensive abilities to speak of, so what you'd get is likely half or more of the party dying in the opening salvo before they gank it, rather than any 'oh-shit' effect before they flee. Try a Devourer in platemail, and throw in flight(at 30ft(good)) instead. That should make it more possible to scare them over the course of a fight, laying down more and more negative levels, while being monstrously hard to hurt and stop permanently.
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
It's a god-eat-god world.

Procrastination is the thief of time; Year after year it steals, till all are fled,
And to the mercies of a moment leaves; The vast concerns of an eternal scene.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: About CR and EXP
« Reply #47 on: May 22, 2012, 04:49:37 PM »
For example they could shoot an urn with a trapped demon at the group (with a catapult) What demon/monster  would you suggest? A beholder maybe?
They would use the demon too when the group manages to slash through most of the army and enters the palace placa.
I would sugest a Bone Devil/Soul Eater 1 (prc from BoVD that basically makes all your natural attacks inflict a negative level at 1st level). Count it as already being buffed with his own Fly SLA when it is "released". Maybe throw a barbarian level for pounce as well for extra nastyness since it has three natural attacks.  Charge in, three attacks inflicting energy+poison drain and fear aura for giggles. If things get tough teleport away a hundred feet or so behind cover and confuse the party with Major Illusions and Wall of Ice at distance before charging back in Invisible.

Not quite as interesting for a level 9 group. Beholders are pretty much 200% offense, with no defensive abilities to speak of, so what you'd get is likely half or more of the party dying in the opening salvo before they gank it, rather than any 'oh-shit' effect before they flee. Try a Devourer in platemail, and throw in flight(at 30ft(good)) instead. That should make it more possible to scare them over the course of a fight, laying down more and more negative levels, while being monstrously hard to hurt and stop permanently.
I see some problems with that:
-The party has a cleric that has already shown to be quite good at turning, so a single devourer could be one-shoted faster than a beholder.
-Full plate greatly reduces your speed, so even if you give it a flight speed out of of nowhere it can still be easily kited. If the cleric doesn't, then the mage will. Not to mention you'll have to burn a feat for proficiency or it won't hit anything either.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 04:51:31 PM by oslecamo »

Offline veekie

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Re: About CR and EXP
« Reply #48 on: May 23, 2012, 01:37:31 AM »
The speed loss was intentional, on the assumption that it'd be really fucking hard to kill and a running battle is kinda what is desired there, or so I thought. Sure they can kite it...except the undead can Run indefinitely, and definitely has more defenses than they can mow through quickly.

It doesn't need to kill or cripple them, just scare the shit out of them and keep them moving. The cleric now, I sorta figured the Devourer being a 12HD undead facing a 6th level party would be literally impossible to turn without specific Turn optimization.
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
It's a god-eat-god world.

Procrastination is the thief of time; Year after year it steals, till all are fled,
And to the mercies of a moment leaves; The vast concerns of an eternal scene.

Offline Dwarfi

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Re: About CR and EXP
« Reply #49 on: May 23, 2012, 02:52:00 AM »
all are nice and interesting. I am still reading through the devils and demons of the Monster compendium.^^
But our cleric isnt lv6, he is at 10th now and maybe 11 before we even get to that point. So a undead would be not the best choice I guess.

A bonedevil or a barbed devil maybe?

A retriever might be the ideal choice to hunt the party, if they steal the holy artefacts and leave the city.

Offline veekie

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Re: About CR and EXP
« Reply #50 on: May 23, 2012, 03:30:21 AM »
In that case the undead option makes for an Entropic Reaper(Libris Mortis) with Fly 60ft, DR/Fast Heal +5, and Displacement.
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
It's a god-eat-god world.

Procrastination is the thief of time; Year after year it steals, till all are fled,
And to the mercies of a moment leaves; The vast concerns of an eternal scene.

Offline Dwarfi

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Re: About CR and EXP
« Reply #51 on: May 23, 2012, 05:25:46 AM »
Oh yes, that looks terrifying.
Has a nice hit/miss chance, enough dice to make a turning hard and some really nasty effects.
Although I dont see anything that says, that it can fly.
DR10 and fast healing yes or is there a feat for undead to fly? I could replace the cleave feat.

Still open for other ideas though.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 12:50:39 PM by Dwarfi »

Offline veekie

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Re: About CR and EXP
« Reply #52 on: May 23, 2012, 02:02:21 PM »
Just plug a permanent Fly/Displacement spell in for that(they could dispel those of course), and the DR/Fast Heal part is just plugged straight in to make it a bit more durable.
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
It's a god-eat-god world.

Procrastination is the thief of time; Year after year it steals, till all are fled,
And to the mercies of a moment leaves; The vast concerns of an eternal scene.

Offline Dwarfi

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Re: About CR and EXP
« Reply #53 on: May 25, 2012, 08:32:49 AM »
Thanks again.

Our game yesterday was a little chaotic but fun. Our barbarian causes a lot of problems, because he somehow got his hands on a anti magic ring, really early in the game. Long before I took over the DM seat. ^^

now I prepare another encounter, which includes a barbarian. I want it to be a bear warrior to be an actual thread as a melee for the group.

Lv 7 barb/ 3 bearwarrior: Blackbear
In his changed shape+ rage he should have 21 AC (10 + Chainmail+3 (8 total) + 3 Dex (the+2 natural armor is negated by the rage loss)
Attack: (not sure on that) 10BAB + 4 Str normal +4Str (bear form) = +18 for both claws +13bite (-5 penalty?)
Dmg: 1d4 + 8 (Strg mod) ? for claws and 1d6+12 for the bite ?
- I dont really know how the claw/bite damage is calculated.

A hold weapon doesnt change anything I guess, but Weapon focus/ spec for natural weapons would. And he could pounce.
Does the high bab give any additional attacks or just the 3 of the bear ?

Another option would be a big weapon to sunder stuff. Though its might be kinda hard, as they have +2 weapons already.

« Last Edit: May 25, 2012, 09:34:46 AM by Dwarfi »

Offline Dwarfi

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Re: About CR and EXP
« Reply #54 on: May 26, 2012, 05:40:31 AM »
3.5e rules:

Another thing I wanted to ask as the question came up recently: I ask because I am looking for some ways to maybe take a little equipment form the PCs, as they are very well equipped right now.

Does the hardness of one weopn effect a sunder attempt ? It is a DR for items if you want to call it that way, but what it says is how hard something is.
So, if I have a large hillgiant with a large +1 greatclub, and he tries to sunder a +2  2H Maul weapon, could he destroy his own weapon as it isnt as hard as the +2 ?
Are there weapons that are actually better to sunder other weapons or shields?
The problem is that I dont want to replace the group weapons with just another weapon they would get when they slay an enemy. So a giant would be a good choice I guess, as the weapon is bigger, the str is increased for size... It could actually work.

Or a great flail, for disarm. While a mob of goblins tries to snatch the loot and run away with it.
Of course the best way would be a adamant weapon, but I really dont want to throw that in right now.

I plan on using acid a lot in the next adv. part. Hoe exactly does that affect gear ?

... Maybe I just trow a couple of rust monsters at them XD
« Last Edit: May 26, 2012, 06:04:27 AM by Dwarfi »

Offline ksbsnowowl

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Re: About CR and EXP
« Reply #55 on: May 26, 2012, 09:54:21 AM »

Or a great flail, for disarm. While a mob of goblins tries to snatch the loot and run away with it.

Disarm is an opposed attack roll.

Quote
Step 1:  Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the target you are trying to disarm. (If you have the Improved Disarm feat, you don’t incur an attack of opportunity for making a disarm attempt.) If the defender’s attack of opportunity deals any damage, your disarm attempt fails.

Step 2:  Opposed Rolls. You and the defender make opposed attack rolls ... the wielder of a light weapon takes a -4 penalty. (An unarmed strike is considered a light weapon, so you always take a penalty when trying to disarm an opponent by using an unarmed strike.) ...

Step 3:  Consequences. ... If you attempted the disarm action unarmed, you now have the weapon.

...

True Strike
Divination
Level:    Sor/Wiz 1
...
Your next single attack roll (if it is made before the end of the next round) gains a +20 insight bonus.

Typical 10th level warrior-type: +10 BAB, +6 Str, +2 weapon, +1 weapon focus = 1d20+19
7th level disarming Duskblade: +7 BAB, +2 Str, +2 Bull's Strength, +4 Imp Disarm, -4 for unarmed, +20 True Strike = 1d20+31

Gish + Improved Disarm + True Strike = 60% chance of auto-succeeding, assuming your disarmer is Medium-sized.

Offline veekie

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Re: About CR and EXP
« Reply #56 on: May 27, 2012, 01:34:15 AM »
Lv 7 barb/ 3 bearwarrior: Blackbear
In his changed shape+ rage he should have 21 AC (10 + Chainmail+3 (8 total) + 3 Dex (the+2 natural armor is negated by the rage loss)
Armor melds when you shapeshift, as it doesn't fit on the new form. The AC is 10+3(dex)+2(nat)-2(rage), or 10+3+5-2 in Brown Bear form.
Quote
Attack: (not sure on that) 10BAB + 4 Str normal +4Str (bear form) = +18 for both claws +13bite (-5 penalty?)
Dmg: 1d4 + 8 (Strg mod) ? for claws and 1d6+12 for the bite ?
- I dont really know how the claw/bite damage is calculated.
Bears have 2 primary claws and 1 secondary bite. Thus, the claws get their full strength bonus(as per a 1H weapon), and the bite gets half strength to the damage(as per an offhand weapon).
Quote
Does the high bab give any additional attacks or just the 3 of the bear ?
Natural weapons do not gain additional attacks from high BAB.

Does the hardness of one weopn effect a sunder attempt ? It is a DR for items if you want to call it that way, but what it says is how hard something is.
So, if I have a large hillgiant with a large +1 greatclub, and he tries to sunder a +2  2H Maul weapon, could he destroy his own weapon as it isnt as hard as the +2 ?
A weapon never takes damage when attacking, unless a specific ability says so. Hardness cannot 'reverse' the damage(for IRL comparisons, a diamond is harder than steel, but you can still break diamonds with a steel hammer).
As long as the attack inflicts slashing or bludgeoning damage, it can sunder, but Fire and Electricity deal half damage before deducting hardness and cold deals a quarter. Ranged attacks inflict only half damage as well.
However, a +2 Maul has 14 hardness and 40hp, meaning you need to hit for 15 damage to do anything at all to the Maul, a somewhat difficult task with the 1d10(+8?) Greatclub without power attack.
Quote
Are there weapons that are actually better to sunder other weapons or shields?
The problem is that I dont want to replace the group weapons with just another weapon they would get when they slay an enemy. So a giant would be a good choice I guess, as the weapon is bigger, the str is increased for size... It could actually work.
What you want is just slashing(works on most weapon-like objects) and a whole lot of damage to get past hardness. Some weapons give a +2 bonus to hitting on sunder attempts, but thats trivial.
You can also look into the Mountain Hammer strike from Tome of Battle. It adds 2d6 damage to an attack and ignores all hardness and damage reduction.
Quote
I plan on using acid a lot in the next adv. part. Hoe exactly does that affect gear ?
Acid doesn't really do much to gear unless specifically aimed at it, when exposed to an attack, you have to roll a nat 1 on your save to even affect worn items at all, and they still have their defenses.
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
It's a god-eat-god world.

Procrastination is the thief of time; Year after year it steals, till all are fled,
And to the mercies of a moment leaves; The vast concerns of an eternal scene.

Offline Dwarfi

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Re: About CR and EXP
« Reply #57 on: May 27, 2012, 08:26:20 AM »
Thanks a lot, as always a big help.
So... if a goblin throws a jar filled with acid at a PC it does 1d6 dmg and thats it. Still a nice way to power up some Lv1 goblin warriors/ scouts.
I will have to check if some oozes or gel. cubes have simmilar effects.

Bear warrior: Well with the AC change I am not entirely sure that its really the best idea to build one against the PCs. Though on a regular +19 the barbarian would usually hit anyway.
The bearwarrior would get hit almost all the time, while he gets one extra attack but doesnt deal that much damage on a single hit as if he would use a 2hand weapon.

Currently looking at the frenzy berserker instead. Does the "destructive rage" feat work on sunder attempts too ? Or only doors, statues ... ?
The deathless frenzy is a little wonky too. Does it negate only ab. drain, level loss and such things or all spell like abil + buffs ?
« Last Edit: May 27, 2012, 08:37:47 AM by Dwarfi »

Offline veekie

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Re: About CR and EXP
« Reply #58 on: May 27, 2012, 09:58:41 AM »
Quote
Currently looking at the frenzy berserker instead. Does the "destructive rage" feat work on sunder attempts too ? Or only doors, statues ... ?
Only to break checks(which are Str checks) applied to inanimate objects. Worn equipment are not subject to break checks(though ropes and chains used to secure a character are).
Quote
The deathless frenzy is a little wonky too. Does it negate only ab. drain, level loss and such things or all spell like abil + buffs ?
No, Deathless frenzy has no effect at all on such things.
Deathless Frenzy means you can't die, period, from any amount of damage, but only hit point damage is considered. You can still be paralyzed, killed outright by spells, or made catatonic from ability damage.
The only exception to damage is that if a Disintegrate hits a sufficiently wounded Frenzied Berserker, being brought below 0 by Disintegrate outright kills you anyway.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2012, 10:02:48 AM by veekie »
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
It's a god-eat-god world.

Procrastination is the thief of time; Year after year it steals, till all are fled,
And to the mercies of a moment leaves; The vast concerns of an eternal scene.

Offline Dwarfi

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Re: About CR and EXP
« Reply #59 on: May 28, 2012, 03:09:14 AM »
Wow, a frenzy berserker should be quite challenging for our group. They usually try to shoot anything done as usual.
Using special stuff like sleep, dispell or anything else is rather rare for them. ^^
Maybe the berserker can at least eat some firespells, and a lot of hits before someone notices whats up. ^^