Twinning a Wish

[cfjeldstrom]

Okay, a problem I have pose to one of my friends, can you use twin spell, or twin power for psionics, on a wish like spell to get an inherent +5 bonus for cheap (like 10000xp)

[darqueseid]

there's only one sticky point here, there is a specific line in the wish spell that says the wish spells need to be cast in "immediate succession" in order to provide a +2 etc... bonus, and the twinned spell specifically states that the spells are cast simultaneously. 

so RAW would seem to indicate that no, it wouldnt work

that being said, if I were dming I would say yes, you can do that, as long as you've figured out a way to allow your character to apply a metamagic to a 9th level spell, or have the ability to cast 13th level spells.  (they do exist, but require some specific builds to do it as early as 17th level..) because to me that seems within reason for the power level and to me it seems like a bad trade for a character really...

in my experience, xp is far more valuable than gold, so spending the 135kgp to get a book of x stat +5 is a much better price than spending 15k xp(you'd have to spend 15k for +5), even if the cost is halved. 
Consider that if you spend 15kxp your spending almost and entire level to do this, and the extra stat boost just isn't worth that.  But spending money, that is really easy to come by at this level, is no big deal.

[Captnq]

Okay, a problem I have pose to one of my friends, can you use twin spell, or twin power for psionics, on a wish like spell to get an inherent +5 bonus for cheap (like 10000xp)

1. How does your DM view wish?

2. How are you getting a 13th level spell?

3. If you use repeat, how are you getting a 12th level spell cast?

4. If you can cast 12th level spells, why did you wait this long to wish up anything?

[sirpercival]

Okay, a problem I have pose to one of my friends, can you use twin spell, or twin power for psionics, on a wish like spell to get an inherent +5 bonus for cheap (like 10000xp)

1. How does your DM view wish?

2. How are you getting a 13th level spell?

3. If you use repeat, how are you getting a 12th level spell cast?

4. If you can cast 12th level spells, why did you wait this long to wish up anything?

Incantatrix or Anima mage can apply the metamagic for free; a Greater Rod could do the same, though it would be prohibitively expensive.

[betrayor]

Normal divine metamagic would work as well......

[sirpercival]

Normal divine metamagic would work as well......

...if you have Wish as a divine spell, I guess.

[darqueseid]

Okay, a problem I have pose to one of my friends, can you use twin spell, or twin power for psionics, on a wish like spell to get an inherent +5 bonus for cheap (like 10000xp)

1. How does your DM view wish?

2. How are you getting a 13th level spell?

3. If you use repeat, how are you getting a 12th level spell cast?

4. If you can cast 12th level spells, why did you wait this long to wish up anything?

Incantatrix or Anima mage can apply the metamagic for free; a Greater Rod could do the same, though it would be prohibitively expensive.

anima mage yes, incantatrix no,  the free metamagic application from incantatrix has been errata'd to say you can only apply metamagics up to the level of spell you can cast, thus an incantatrix would still need to be able to cast from 12/13th level spell slots

I don't know of any similar anima mage eratta

[betrayor]

Normal divine metamagic would work as well......

...if you have Wish as a divine spell, I guess.

Envy Domain then would be a good choice since it has wish as the ninth level domain spell....

[cfjeldstrom]

If everyone can recall that Wish is not the only spell out there that can do this, Miracle and Reality Revision also accomplish the task of conferring inherent bonuses. And as a Psion with the Overchannel feat, is is quite simple to twin Reality Revision by 20. A Cleric can cast Miracle, and Twin it using Divine Metamagic, So there are alternatives to only using Wish.

[betrayor]

If everyone can recall that Wish is not the only spell out there that can do this, Miracle and Reality Revision also accomplish the task of conferring inherent bonuses. And as a Psion with the Overchannel feat, is is quite simple to twin Reality Revision by 20. A Cleric can cast Miracle, and Twin it using Divine Metamagic, So there are alternatives to only using Wish.

Actually miracle can not give inherent bonuses.....
It can be used to create a tome though.....

[Kethrian]

If everyone can recall that Wish is not the only spell out there that can do this, Miracle and Reality Revision also accomplish the task of conferring inherent bonuses. And as a Psion with the Overchannel feat, is is quite simple to twin Reality Revision by 20. A Cleric can cast Miracle, and Twin it using Divine Metamagic, So there are alternatives to only using Wish.

Actually miracle can not give inherent bonuses.....
It can be used to create a tome though.....

Miracle might not explicitly state that it can grant inherent bonuses, but it does still have equivalent power to that of Wish.  So long as granting an inherent bonus to a given ability score would not run counter to the deity's (or PC's ideals) area of influence, it would be perfectly fine to allow, at the same 5000xp cost per +1.

[Captnq]

Incantatrix or Anima mage can apply the metamagic for free; a Greater Rod could do the same, though it would be prohibitively expensive.

Greater Rod of Twinning?
What book has greater rod of twinning?

Metamagic rods are: Chain, Empower, Energy Affinity (Acid, Cold, Fire, Electricity), Enlarge, Extend, Maximize, Quicken, Reach, Sculpt, Silent
Then Sudden Empower, Energy affinity (Acid, Cold, Fire, Electricity), Extend, Maximize, Quicken, Silent, Still, Widen

There is no Rod of/sudden Twin  That I know about. Where did you find this?

Also, Incantatrix:10 -1 level metamagic I got that. Anima mage, I have no idea what you are talking about. How could an Anima mage cast a Twin Wish?

I mean, Incanatrix -1, Dweomerkeeper -1, Easy Metamagic -1, But then what? Ultimate magus won't help you. He can't affect 9th level spells. Hrm.... I suppose arcane thesis: wish. We're still talking what? 24th level wizard, minimum? Plus, you might run into a DM who rules that if one of those metamagic feat cost reducers says, "CANNOT GO BELOW +1", then he won't let you get to +0 cost on twin no matter what.

I suppose you could use alternative source spell from dragon magazine to make it a Divine Wish then use Divine Metamagic and burn 5 turn undead attempts. I have no idea who'd go through that much effort, but it's possible.

Just curious mind you. Don't really care one way or the other.

[Kethrian]

I think for the rod, since Twin is a +4 metamagic, just find the price of a listed +4 and it would cost the same.

[Captnq]

I think for the rod, since Twin is a +4 metamagic, just find the price of a listed +4 and it would cost the same.

I've been burned by that. As far as Metamagic feats are concerned, I no longer allow the players to just make up whatever they want in an item after the Metamagic Rod of POWER. I allow players to make magic items worth up to your caster level x 10,000 gp. Himo managed to have a Metamagic rod that was 3 uses per day of extend lesser, maximize normal, twin normal, quicken, I dunno. It was just a god awful number of rods blended together. Then he started applying a version of the Staff Formula and somehow managed to figure out how to maximize/empower/twin (at the same time) 6 spells a day. The math was nightmare fuel.

I refunded his gp and xp and promptly said No Non-standard Rods/sudden anymore. They were omitted  by WotC for a reason.

[Kethrian]

The rod you're describing would be horribly expensive to make.  You'd take the price of the most expensive of those, then add +50% to the price of each of the others, and add all that together... it would probably cost 500,000gp+ to make!

And as for the staff, just disallow metamagic reducers when making it, and his plans go down the drain.  Unless the spell was Magic Missile, or something....

[sirpercival]

I didn't say THE rod of twinning, I said A rod.  Yes, it's a custom item, and though the pricing rules for metamagic rods are very clear (so it wouldn't be subject to the same underpricing problem as things like, say, a use-activated item of true strike), it's subject to the same pit traps as any other custom item.

It's true that an incantatrix could not use Instant Metamagic (due to the errata), but Cooperative Metamagic (which no one seems to ever remember) would allow it no problem, as long as there's someone else who can cast Wish.  And an Anima Mage can do it solo with Vestige Metamagic.

But anyway they should be using Repeat and not Twin.

[darqueseid]

I didn't say THE rod of twinning, I said A rod.  Yes, it's a custom item, and though the pricing rules for metamagic rods are very clear (so it wouldn't be subject to the same underpricing problem as things like, say, a use-activated item of true strike), it's subject to the same pit traps as any other custom item.

It's true that an incantatrix could not use Instant Metamagic (due to the errata), but Cooperative Metamagic (which no one seems to ever remember) would allow it no problem, as long as there's someone else who can cast Wish.  And an Anima Mage can do it solo with Vestige Metamagic.

But anyway they should be using Repeat and not Twin.

Yeah, I forgot about coop metamagic, but you have to get somone else willing to cast it, meaning he's losing xp to boost you... hope you can make a good deal with that high level wizard to do it.  Anima mage is the way to go it seems, and I agree on the repeat, that gets around the cast in succession thing... although repeat spell is somewhat less good than twin.

I guess we've shown that it CAN be done, but again it doesn't seem like it should be done.  Unless you have some other wiz casting it for you then its strictly not worth the xp loss, you'd have to cast 3 times even with repeat to get the full +5, and that costs you almost a whole level of xp(15k).  Levels > gold, just buy the +5 book. 

[sirpercival]

Here's a question... if you have the Magic in the Blood feat, and you shapechange into something with SLAs, could you get 3/day uses of any 1/day SLAs that way?

[darqueseid]

Um, I don't think you get SLA's when you do shapechange.   its Extroardinary and supernatural only.  So I'd say no.  At least thats the way I would rule it as a DM.
(I'm not sure the rules are entirely clear on that... I've seen arguments for either side)

[sirpercival]

Oh, yes.  What I meant was Planar Shepherd.