Using skills like tumble and jump during a charge?

[ksbsnowowl]

Ignore Leap Attack for a moment.  In the core rules, are you allowed to balance, jump, or tumble during a charge?

[phaedrusxy]

Here's what the Charge action in the SRD says:

You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). Here’s what it means to have a clear path. First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. (If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge.) Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge. (Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.)

So the reasons for wanting to jump, tumble, or balance while charging might actually preclude you from charging. If they don't, then I think it is legal to combine the actions. In all of the games where it has came up that I've played in, it's always been allowed.

[ksbsnowowl]

So jumping a 10-foot chasm is fine, so long as nothing hinders your movement.  But jumping over a low wall doesn't work.
Balancing across a slippery log is fine, so long as you accept the -5 penalty to the check (this one is actually called out in the Balance skill).
Tumbling to avoid AoO's is fine, so long as you accept the -10 penalty for accelerated tumbling? (would that be the case if you only charged 15 feet, and thus don't need to cover more than half your speed?)

[Ithamar]

If you do tumble, you have to take the -10 penalty for doing an accelerated tumble.  Otherwise you move at half speed, which violates the rule about something slowing your movement.

In the FAQ is was asked/answered that you can leap horizontally during a charge (such as to go over some obstacle).  But you cannot leap vertically because that constitutes a direction change.

[ksbsnowowl]

In the FAQ is was asked/answered that you can leap horizontally during a charge (such as to go over some obstacle).  But you cannot leap vertically because that constitutes a direction change.

The FAQ actually allows ignoring low obstacles (via 1/4 your long jump distance in height) without leap attack?  Interesting...

It is the FAQ...

[Ithamar]

Also, I just found this:

Balancing during a Charge:  You can make a Balance check to charge across a precarious surface, but you take a –5 penalty on the check for each multiple of your speed (or fraction thereof) that you charge.  Charging in this way requires one Balance check for each multiple of your speed (or fraction thereof) that you charge.  Any check that fails carries the normal ramifi cations for failing a Balance check (see page 90), likely ending your movement and preventing your charge.

Jumping during a Charge:  You can make a long jump to avoid an obstacle as part of a charge, as long as you continue to meet all other criteria for making a charge before, during, and after the jump.

Tumbling during a Charge:  You can tumble during a charge, as long as you continue to meet all other criteria for making a charge before, during, and after tumbling.

[ksbsnowowl]

Good to know. I don't own the rules compendium.  Interesting that it doesn't specify you must accelerated tumble (with a -10 penalty) in order to tumble while charging.

[WeMustBeMAD]

How does Acrobatic Charge (such as the Swashbuckler ability) apply then? Do the Rules Compendium entries make Acrobatic Charge moot, or does it work differently?

[Yirrare]

How does Acrobatic Charge (such as the Swashbuckler ability) apply then? Do the Rules Compendium entries make Acrobatic Charge moot, or does it work differently?

I second this question.
Why can't the Swashbuckler have anything nice?

Kindly
Yirrare

[Esgath]

Good to know. I don't own the rules compendium.  Interesting that it doesn't specify you must accelerated tumble (with a -10 penalty) in order to tumble while charging.

Because that's covered in the tumble rules. If you just charge 2 squares, then you probably wouldn't need to accelerate.

[ksbsnowowl]

How does Acrobatic Charge (such as the Swashbuckler ability) apply then? Do the Rules Compendium entries make Acrobatic Charge moot, or does it work differently?

A swashbuckler is automatically able to do those things, no skill checks required.

Acrobatic Charge (Ex): A swashbuckler of 7th level
or higher can charge in situations where others cannot.
She may charge over difficult terrain that normally slows
movement...

This would require a jump check to avoid.

... or allies blocking her path.

Tumble wouldn't allow this, only jump allows you to avoid obstacles.  You can't high jump, only long jump.  To get enough vertical height on a long jump to leap over a 5-foot character is a DC 20 (or higher) Jump check.

This ability enables
her to run down steep stairs, leap down from a balcony,

These are probably now doable via Jump checks, according to Rules Compendium.

or to tumble over tables to get to her target.

Tumble won't let you ignore such an obstacle, because the Rules Compendium stipulates you must "continue to meet all other criteria for making a charge before, during, and after tumbling."  Your path is still obstructed.  You could jump over it, though.

Good to know. I don't own the rules compendium.  Interesting that it doesn't specify you must accelerated tumble (with a -10 penalty) in order to tumble while charging.

Because that's covered in the tumble rules. If you just charge 2 squares, then you probably wouldn't need to accelerate.

Except someone in this very thread disagrees:

If you do tumble, you have to take the -10 penalty for doing an accelerated tumble.  Otherwise you move at half speed, which violates the rule about something slowing your movement.

[Esgath]

Good to know. I don't own the rules compendium.  Interesting that it doesn't specify you must accelerated tumble (with a -10 penalty) in order to tumble while charging.

Because that's covered in the tumble rules. If you just charge 2 squares, then you probably wouldn't need to accelerate.

Except someone in this very thread disagrees:

If you do tumble, you have to take the -10 penalty for doing an accelerated tumble.  Otherwise you move at half speed, which violates the rule about something slowing your movement.

Ok, a charge allows you to move up to double your movement to hit someone, but you don't have to take that additional movement. Tumble just states, that you only can do it up to half your basespeed and further with a penalty up to your basespeed. The movement itself isn't hindered.

[Ithamar]

The DC 15 tumble check specifically indicates you move at one half speed.  Charging indicates if you move through a square that slows movement, you cannot charge.  Tumbling past an enemy at half speed certainly seems to me like it is slowing your movement.  Thus if you want to tumble and charge, you have to do it at full speed, which is essentialy a DC 25 to pull off.

[WeMustBeMAD]

How does Acrobatic Charge (such as the Swashbuckler ability) apply then? Do the Rules Compendium entries make Acrobatic Charge moot, or does it work differently?

A swashbuckler is automatically able to do those things, no skill checks required.

Acrobatic Charge (Ex): A swashbuckler of 7th level
or higher can charge in situations where others cannot.
She may charge over difficult terrain that normally slows
movement...

This would require a jump check to avoid.

... or allies blocking her path.

Tumble wouldn't allow this, only jump allows you to avoid obstacles.  You can't high jump, only long jump.  To get enough vertical height on a long jump to leap over a 5-foot character is a DC 20 (or higher) Jump check.

This ability enables
her to run down steep stairs, leap down from a balcony,

These are probably now doable via Jump checks, according to Rules Compendium.

or to tumble over tables to get to her target.

Tumble won't let you ignore such an obstacle, because the Rules Compendium stipulates you must "continue to meet all other criteria for making a charge before, during, and after tumbling."  Your path is still obstructed.  You could jump over it, though.

Actually, the Tumble skill says that "obstructed or otherwise treacherous surfaces... are tough to tumble through." Not impossible. And if you can tumble through a square occupied by an enemy, why couldn't you do the same through an ally's square?

Also, you failed to mention the last part of the Acrobatic Charge description:

Depending on the circumstance, she may still need to make appropriate checks (Jump or Tumble checks, in particular) to successfully move over the terrain.

So no, a Swashbuckler isn't automatically able to do those things. They still have to make the appropriate checks.

The Rules Compendium only states "as long as you continue to meet all other criteria for making a charge before, during, and after" you jump or tumble. I think I understand. The criteria is either A) you cannot charge over difficult terrain or obstacles as stated in the PHB, so no Jump or Tumble checks (unless there is no difficult terrain or obstacles, but then you wouldn't need to make the checks), unless B) you have an ability, such as Acrobatic Charge, that allows you to do so. I could be wrong, but that seems to make sense to me.

[Esgath]

The DC 15 tumble check specifically indicates you move at one half speed.  Charging indicates if you move through a square that slows movement, you cannot charge.  Tumbling past an enemy at half speed certainly seems to me like it is slowing your movement.  Thus if you want to tumble and charge, you have to do it at full speed, which is essentialy a DC 25 to pull off.

My bad, you're right. It clearly states that you move at half speed.
However, I just checked the PHB and Rules Compendium regarding charge. Seems like they changed the effect of hindered movement on charge. In the PHB it's slowed movement in general which prevents a charge, in the Rules Compendium it's just difficult terrain.

[weenog]

Actually, the Tumble skill says that "obstructed or otherwise treacherous surfaces... are tough to tumble through." Not impossible. And if you can tumble through a square occupied by an enemy, why couldn't you do the same through an ally's square?

You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). Here’s what it means to have a clear path. First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. (If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge.) Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge. (Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.)

That's why you couldn't do the same through an ally's square.  Specific trumps general.  If you come up with an explicit exception to the no charging through allies rule, then you can do it.

[Kethrian]

Actually, the Tumble skill says that "obstructed or otherwise treacherous surfaces... are tough to tumble through." Not impossible. And if you can tumble through a square occupied by an enemy, why couldn't you do the same through an ally's square?

You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). Here’s what it means to have a clear path. First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. (If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge.) Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge. (Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.)

That's why you couldn't do the same through an ally's square.  Specific trumps general.  If you come up with an explicit exception to the no charging through allies rule, then you can do it.

Well, there is this:

Also, I just found this:

Balancing during a Charge:  You can make a Balance check to charge across a precarious surface, but you take a –5 penalty on the check for each multiple of your speed (or fraction thereof) that you charge.  Charging in this way requires one Balance check for each multiple of your speed (or fraction thereof) that you charge.  Any check that fails carries the normal ramifi cations for failing a Balance check (see page 90), likely ending your movement and preventing your charge.

Jumping during a Charge:  You can make a long jump to avoid an obstacle as part of a charge, as long as you continue to meet all other criteria for making a charge before, during, and after the jump.

Tumbling during a Charge:  You can tumble during a charge, as long as you continue to meet all other criteria for making a charge before, during, and after tumbling.

[weenog]

Other criteria such as not passing through a space occupied by another creature?

[Kethrian]

At the very least, a jacked jump check can let you leap over your ally...

But tumbling through an occupied space at full speed is DC 35, so there is that, too....

[Halinn]

At the very least, a jacked jump check can let you leap over your ally...

But tumbling through an occupied space at full speed is DC 35, so there is that, too....

Jumping over an obstacle or creature means that the line you choose, though a curved line, does not pass through an illegal square. Tumbling through an occupied space would go against the specific charge rules.