Sub-... 'optimal' gaming group

[claypigeons]

"Sub-optimal" is the wrong word, but I can't think of a better one at the moment. Apologies for any annoyance.

I like my game group. I have fun every session, as does everyone else. We laugh, we have a good time roleplaying, we have fun killing the bad guys... That's not a problem.

And, in all honesty, there isn't a problem. Not really. Not yet, anyway.

(click to show/hide)

We have a 4 person group, and each of us was pushed to pick up Leadership, giving us an 8-man group. This is quite a few, but we have managed to keep the pace up and move quickly through combat and social encounters.

We have a Bard-X/Something-Y (or maybe a custom magic item? I'm not sure. The player is very secretive about his character. He isn't a disruption so it's irrelevant.) with a barbarian cohort. The bard does bard-y things, like sing and dance and also rogue-y things. The barbarian slices/stabs things with sharp metal bits. Both characters do what their relative jobs entail. The player is focused more on "doing what's fun" but has yet to cause any actual harm. And he doesn't like talking to people... 

We have a new-ish player that is running a Ranger with a wizard cohort. He uses the cohort as a blaster, tossing out Magic Missile and Acidic Splatter (Reserve feat) to hurt things. I have tried to encourage him to take a look at the other several hundred other spells that are also available, but he's deadset on being a cannon. So then I pointed him toward Sorcerer. If he wants to blast with just a couple spells, a sorcerer would be a boost. That's a no-go, as he wants to be able to cast "basically every spell if I want."

And the last non-me player is running a Rogue3/Swordsage3 and a rogue cohort. The swordsage has Adaptive Style and Shadow Blade so does a good job at being a chainsaw. The rogue does rogue-y things. But the player constantly forgets about her maneuvers, so misses out on TONS of damage every turn. She forgets about sneak attack sometimes.


Not a bad situation by any stretch, though improvements could be made. That's not the issue. The issue is that I'm playing a Druid with a Crusader cohort. I don't forget about my maneuvers. Druids are badass in a can, and it's pretty hard to screw them up unless you are actively trying.

And that's the problem I foresee. We have yet to face a truly challenging encounter (story reasons, etc.), and any hurdles are due to rolling and making poor tactical choices. I have outdamaged the rest of the group combined without any effort... I realize damage isn't the best or fastest way to end encounters... but that's the way the group is playing, and I'm following along. But a Sword and Board crusader and a druid with Shillelagh have outdone the combined efforts of a Barbarian, a swordsage, a rogue, a ranger and blaster wizard by a wide margin.

My druid has Nymph's Kiss, Augment Healing, Magic of the Land and Leadership as feats (Vulnerable as a flaw)... And I have used Wildshape once so far in the campaign, and that was into an eagle.

I guess the question I'm meandering to is this: What happens when, in a few levels, my characters are doing ~everything~ for the group? Do I just outshine the group because they won't listen to optimization advice? Or do I continue to under perform and play a healbot druid?

[Captnq]

Sounds like you are asking the following question: Do I want to stick with a group that just wants to RP?

I don't know what your options are. Me? I have the personality of a toad. Besides the gaming group (it ain't that big) I have no friends. There are no organizations here. Hell, I've never been invited to a party. I've been asked to be someone's +1 a few times, but nobody has ever asked me to attend. Family reunions, oh sure, but a birthday party or just a going out sort of thing? Nope. Never been asked to join a gaming group, either. So, given I'm a social pariah and about as cuddly as a cactus, I have very few options available to me.

So for me, the answer would be, If I want to do any gaming, I'm stuck being the DM. Now, it's fun and I have no complaints. Honestly, I don't miss playing a PC. It's the best choice I got, out of the situation I have.

Now, I think my group is what you are looking for. I mean, these guys are a machine. They strip mine Dungeons. Rapan Athak was a joke. They stole the locks off the doors for crying out loud. Those locks were 100 gp each by the Player's guide. Who thinks of stealing the locks? They do. They loot. it's what they do. Hell, One of the PCs came up with a spell called Sealston's Slaughterhouse. It transforms the target into a pile of neatly carved up parts including paper, glass jars, or whatever you need to hold the body parts of the slain critter. Once, They cut the head off a dragon with a vorpal sword, then the wizard had the dragon's body in sorted piles of hide, blood, bones, and assorted internal organs before the head hit the ground. THAT is how this crew thinks.

It seems to me what you want is for them to be a bit more serious about 'winning' and stop screwing around so much. Well, that's not what they want. They want to screw around. This isn't about winning for them, it's about forgetting "how much I hate my boss/professor/parents/ex-wife/entire stinking life" and getting down to the business of being Og the Barbarian and his throbbing biceps.

Welcome to the show. What Show? (Flexes his arms) THE GUN SHOW! (kisses both arms and winks at the nearest woman)

I think you need to think about the following:

Do they WANT to be a dungeon crawling looting machine?
Do you have other options?
Can you live with just roleplaying and getting bogged down in details that don't have anything to do with the adventure? (I don't count gps spent on your home as part of your wealth by level. I figure if it doesn't enter combat, it doesn't count. One of the players is blowing an obscene amount of money on her dream home. She's spending weeks of game time painting pictures for each room in her home. It's what she enjoys.)

Maybe you should just stop trying to make them play more like you and live with it. Sup to you.

[Bearchucks]

Useful party buffs.  Show the bard all the Inspire Courage tricks http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830

Lingering Song Feat (Complete Adventurer 111): Your Bardic Music lasts for 1 minute (10 rounds) after you stop performing instead of 5.

Song of the Heart Feat (Eberron Campaign Setting 60): +1.  Other feats get bonuses too, but those don't matter for our purposes.  Nyah.

Eberron Campaign Setting 34 states a Bard may take this feat in place of a new form of Bardic Music at level 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, or 18.  Since these are "bonus feats," you can debatably skip the prereqs.  If you can, then in short, you can dump Inspire Competence to take this and, say, Dragonfire Inspiration at level 3.

Words of Creation Feat (Book of Exalted Deeds 48): DOUBLES your Inspire Courage bonus with any instrument.  Saner interpretations say this is only from levels, but RAW says 'doubles.'  You also take icky subdual damage unless you're immune.

If the whole party hits and does decent damage, you don't outshine them as much.

You could tweak the crusader to go for more lockdown and play more "setup" with the druid.  Remind the rogue's player about sneak attack (if you're deliberately setting up a situation where your opponents are blinded/flat-footed/stunned/otherwise vulnerable, it looks good, especially if you can come up with some kind of in character reason to serve them up like that). 

Mention to the guy with the wizard that he can use a spell to do Xd6 damage or he can use that same spell level to, say, grease an enemy and give the rogue a bunch of d6s on every attack.  If he wants to do damage, there's lots of very nice ways to do that, more frequently by using other people.  My last game ended because my brother's dervish was just too efficient a delivery mechanism for my bard's well-honed Inspire Courage ability.

Or point the wizard guy at Mage of the Arcane Order taken via sorcerer (arcane preparation).  Cast "basically every spell if you want", and yet still have a focus you're very good at.  Or the Rainbow Warsnake if you think the game will get that far.  Because if any spell on the cleric list any time you want isn't enough spells, he's doing something wrong.  =P
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Let them be what they want, but just offer the options and relax a bit.  So long as they're not actively being a problem, you can always go beast mode and "win" the encounter, keep the panic button in your back pocket.

[claypigeons]

Sounds like you are asking the following question: Do I want to stick with a group that just wants to RP?

Roleplaying isn't a problem. That's the point of an RPG... to play the role of someone/something you aren't. And the group isn't just focused on roleplay. They REALLY enjoy killing things, but they just aren't as good as they could be at it. I don't want Pun-Pun levels of stupid. I just don't want my Shillelagh q-staff wielding druid to be the top damage dealer in any given encounter.

I'd like the wizard to cast more than Magic Missile. But if that's all he wants to do, then fine. I want him to be ~better~ at it.

It seems to me what you want is for them to be a bit more serious about 'winning' and stop screwing around so much. Well, that's not what they want. They want to screw around. This isn't about winning for them...

We 'win' every session. We all have fun each time we get together to play. The relative lack of 'takes killing seriously' isn't a fun-killer. It just makes for stressful combat situations when 1/4 of the party is doing all the heavy lifting every combat.

You could tweak the crusader to go for more lockdown and play more "setup" with the druid.  Remind the rogue's player about sneak attack (if you're deliberately setting up a situation where your opponents are blinded/flat-footed/stunned/otherwise vulnerable, it looks good, especially if you can come up with some kind of in character reason to serve them up like that). 

The SS and rogue move around as something like a hitsquad, using Island of Blades. The player just forgets the extra numbers to add to her attacks. I'm trying to get the Wizard to help set up kill-zones with Grease and such, but he really loves Magic Missile.

I will look into adapting the Crusader, though.

Let them be what they want, but just offer the options and relax a bit.  So long as they're not actively being a problem, you can always go beast mode and "win" the encounter, keep the panic button in your back pocket.

I didn't mean to come as sounding like they need to play a certain class a certain way. I just want them to be ~good~ at their chosen role. The barbarian least of all should be outdamaging my druid.

[Unbeliever]

You can offer to help them with their builds.  After that, I'd suggest leaning back and not worrying about it too much.  So long as the DM has a decent handle on what the power level  of the group is, then it should be fine.  Another option would be to shift yourself to a less powerful character build or concept.  Right now you're playing something that is pretty uber.  And, you're probably going to have to restrain yourself.  This might be a good opportunity to play something kind of bad b/c you won't have to worry about keeping up with some power curve.

One thing I detect is that this campaign set-up is actually really really demanding on the players.  Each one of them has essentially 2 characters to play.  For people who aren't super on-board or in love with the system stuff, e.g., a rogue/swordsage who forgets sneak attack or her maneuvers, this just spells trouble to me.  The more complexity you put in a character, and adding a cohort is a fuckton of extra complexity, the more likely they are to miss things.  And, I don't know if what you're talking about is as much of an issue as you think:  it doesn't strike me as wrong that the primary PC druid is outdamaging a cohort barbarian that is 2 levels lower.

Personally, I'd suggest that you guys cut back on the cohorts.  You might want to talk about all this with the DM, too.  Other than that, I'd go with some of my fellow posters' suggestions and play an enabler or a disabler.  You can focus on battlefield control (especially once you get extraordinary spell aim) and buffing, which has the nice effect of making everyone else shine. 

[Mnemnosyne]

My advice would be to try to outshine them by a relatively narrow margin.  Constantly do slightly better than them.  Don't do so much better than them that they instantly realize they may as well not be there, but do enough better than them that they want to get a little better themselves.  Occasionally make comments at points where they could have used spell X, ability X, or feat X, if they had it (but don't do this too often - maybe once or twice a session at most).  Make sure they know you're available to help them improve, if they want the help, but don't constantly be offering it.  In this way, you're essentially challenging them to get better by being better yourself, rather than vocally demanding that they improve.  I would avoid shifting your focus completely to group support, but make sure and show off battlefield control spells sometimes so the guy with the wizard can see what he's missing.  Once in a rare while, drop an encounter-ender and just go /yawn at the enemies when with one standard action, you effectively nullify them.

I also agree with dropping Leadership all around if you can get the group and DM to agree to that, but that might be difficult.

[Kasz]

Gimp yourself. Bring yourself down to their level... change into 'fun' forms rather than optimal forms... grapple someone as a dire shark on land or other silly things. Like Mnemnosyne said, outshine them but only barely.

Keep a backup-plan of like 1 wildshape and a couple spells on hand just in case you need to drop the charade and tear things apart as a fleshraker with a fleshraker cohort and venomfire shared.

Let the Wizard cast magic missle, not all Wizards are born equal... for the conjuration and transmutation specialists to be regarded as good choices those evoker specialists need to exist. You can either let it bug you or enjoy the evoker as a character that you RP with.

As to the rogue that forgets her damage, have you thought about printing her a cue card?

Are they Flatfooted or Denied Dex for a Sneak attack? Are you adding a maneuver?
Basic Attack: +10 to hit, (1D8 + 4) + Any maneuver?
Sneak Attack: +10 to hit, (1D8 + 4 + 5D6) + Any maneuver?

as an example, this will remind her to check to see if it's a sneak or not, as well as prompting her to add a maneuver, making combat flow a little quicker and correcting player error... it's not a suboptimal character to make mistakes... it's just human error.