Modified Gestalt Ideas

[snoosnaa]

Hello,

My group is about to run a semi-gestalt campaign and I am looking for some ideas on solid choices.

There are some restrictions to the normal gestalt rules, though.

We can only pick base classes, no prestige classes.  Once we pick the two base classes, we cannot multiclass, so it is just 2 base classes to 20.  We will be starting at level 1, and must be human.  I cannot convince my DM to let us dip.

The ideas I have thought of so far are druid/cleric because they are both powerful, but some of the spells overlap and such.

Also, I would have to say crusader/warblade is my current frontrunner for tanking melee happiness.  I would also be able to focus my feats around combat completely.

Third, I have thought that factotem/? would probably be good based on the whole jack of all trades thing.

Restrictions on content are no online material, no magazines, and only books we own(which is a lot of them).  The only glaring omissions on our book list are complete champion, PH2 and MIC, but there are others we don't have.

What I am looking for are some possible combos that would be sweet.  I tend to favor melee but don't have a problem with casters.  Any suggestions are appreciated.

[sirpercival]

Druid/Cleric and Warblade/Crusader are both poor gestalt choices due to too much overlap in abilities. What you want for gestalt is to have complementary stuff.

For example, Factotum/Warblade for melee or Factotum/Wizard for casting are both excellent.  Warblade/Wizard is a great gish, as is Crusader/Sorcerer.  Barbarian/Druid or Ranger/Druid is a pretty sweet combo as well.  The most powerful combos of course are going to be dual-casters, like Archivist/Wizard, Psion/Wizard, Ardent/Cleric, etc.  PsyWar/Cleric could be good as well.

For more fun, you can do things like Druid/Totemist.  That's gonna be super awesome in terms of wildshaping.

[ksbsnowowl]

The ideas I have thought of so far are druid/cleric because they are both powerful, but some of the spells overlap and such.

What about Druid//Archivist instead?  With the prayerbook you wouldn't have to get any of the spells that overlap with Druid, could cherry-pick the Cleric spells you want, and get some nice typical wiz/sorc spells from domains and Adept lists.  Mmm... Divine Power/Divine Favor Dire Bear of Doom...

Take a look at the adept spell list, it's got some nice things to cherry pick.  Invisibility, Scorching Ray, Mirror Image, Web, See Invisibility, Polymorph, Restoration (as 4th level), Heal (as 5th level)

Also, I would have to say crusader/warblade is my current frontrunner for tanking melee happiness.  I would also be able to focus my feats around combat completely.

  Part of Gestalt effectiveness is covering the weaknesses of the other class.  I would think either Crusader//Swordsage or Warblade//Swordsage would be better.  Crus//Warb only gives you Full BAB and a good Fort save (and 4 skill points per level).  Either of the two I listed gives you Full BAB, all good saves (and 6 skill points per level, with a better skill list).

The Crusader or Warblade side gets good, full recovery methods, while the swordsage side gives you some of the more interesting maneuvers.  I think Crusader would be more durable, with steely resolve and healing strikes, but warblade could get some nice combo's, and dual stance at 20th level is very nice.

Third, I have thought that factotem/?

Can't help you with that one: don't have dungeonscape.

The only glaring omissions on our book list are complete champion, PH2 and MIC, but there are others we don't have.

Some of the feats from PHB2 could nice for the a warblade (Robilar's Gambit), but it's not essential.

What I am looking for are some possible combos that would be sweet.  I tend to favor melee but don't have a problem with casters.  Any suggestions are appreciated.

Druid//Scout + Improved Skirmish feat + Tiger wild shape = 5 attacks on a charge for +5d6 damage each at 9th level.  Add on Girallon's Blessing (spell compendium) and it just gets dirty.  One of my players did something similar (but with Arcane Strike; he's a Druid//Sorcerer) and it actually upset the Barbarian//Beguiler player, because it WAY out-damages him.

Druid//Rogue's not bad either.  You have your own built-in flanking buddy as a class feature, you get UMD to play around with wands and whatnot, touch-attack spells (produce flame and flame blade) and there are feats to make this nasty too (Neraph Charge from Planar Handbook lets you treat a foe you charge as flat-footed, once per foe per combat).  Get your hands on Complete Champion and you can trade out trap sense for the ability to apply half your sneak attack dice to undead.  Or go the method in Dungeonscape to get half sneak attack on non-critables so long as you are flanking them.

I'll try to think of some more.

[ksbsnowowl]

Warblade/Wizard is a great gish

If you could spare the feats for a few things like Combat Expertise and Improved Disarm, you could make some of your fights a lot easier.
5th level Disarm check: +5 BAB, +3 Str, +1 weapon, +4 Imp Disarm, -4 unarmed, +20 true strike = 1d20+29 to disarm.  Most foes would only get to resist with +5 BAB, +3 Str, +1 weapon = 1d20+9.  You would auto-succeed on disarm checks, and steal the weapon right out of their hands.  Just don't roll a 1.

Then turn around and Emerald Razor/Power Attack them. With their own weapon.

[sirpercival]

Warblade/Wizard is a great gish

If you could spare the feats for a few things like Combat Expertise and Improved Disarm, you could make some of your fights a lot easier.
5th level Disarm check: +5 BAB, +3 Str, +1 weapon, +4 Imp Disarm, -4 unarmed, +20 true strike = 1d20+29 to disarm.  Most foes would only get to resist with +5 BAB, +3 Str, +1 weapon = 1d20+9.  You would auto-succeed on disarm checks, and steal the weapon right out of their hands.  Just don't roll a 1.

Then turn around and Emerald Razor/Power Attack them. With their own weapon.

Why are you bothering with disarm & expertise?  You can get your AC way higher without using CE, and your opponents are likely to have quite high attack bonuses to oppose your disarm, if you even face off against disarmable enemies.  Against creatures with natural weapons, you wasted your build.

[snoosnaa]

Excellent and fast replies.  This is why I come here 

Druid/archivist sounds fun, as well as druid rogue.  I love the ToB so factotem warblade is something I will look into.

Thanks again and I will check back once I do some research.

[ksbsnowowl]

Why are you bothering with disarm & expertise?  You can get your AC way higher without using CE, and your opponents are likely to have quite high attack bonuses to oppose your disarm, if you even face off against disarmable enemies.  Against creatures with natural weapons, you wasted your build.

I was just displaying what is possible.  Of course it won't be useful in all situations, but when you use it to steal a mage's staff out of his hands, it just might save your party's hides.

You can also pull it off without those two feats; I was just listing the typical way to go about it.  Buff yourself with Mirror Image and Displacement and you all but negate the AoO.  Now you're just down the +4 bonus from Improved Disarm.  Still quite effective in the right circumstances, and doesn't really change from what you would normally prep for your spells.

[JohnnyMayHymn]

For gestalt, I like to group whatever classes I cant decide on by their primary mental stat.

Like Factotum, wizard, archivist, erudite, warblade, beguiler, etc... for int
Crusader, sorcerer, bard, binder... etc... for cha
druid, cleric, ardent, (archivist), (arcane)swordsage etc.. for wis

Then consider a few options,
Pair an active class, it's powerful abilities use actions(a full caster for example), with a passive class, it's powerful abilities do not use actions in combat(incarnum classes, dragon shaman auras, artificer crafting, factotum goes here too b/c it actually give you more actions)

Choose two classes for synergy, such as cleric//druid and focus on summoning, or binder//archivist, there is a vestige that grants a crafting feat(you can swap this out daily), now the artificer doesn't have to focus as much on say golems.

There is also choosing a main class, then using the onther side to supplement its weaknesses, dipping for example; but, you don't have that option. 

That being said, the most powerful is probably going to be factotum//something int based
 Then it just comes down to what you want to play, from what you listed I would recommend:
druid//cleric, swordsage or totemist:
Factotum//warblade or artificer(meleeficer)
Or crusader//binder, sorcerer or bard

[Rebel7284]

It has been said before, the best gestalt build is Factotum, Wizard, Warblade: Chose two.

I am partial to Factotum/Wizard as having extra actions on a full caster is crazy and factotum's ability to add Int to everything is an amazing buff.

[sirpercival]

Yeah, Factotum//Wizard and Factotum//Artificer are my favorites.

[ksbsnowowl]

One of these days I'll run across a used copy of Dungeonscape, and I'll finally understand all the hoopala about factotum.

[Amechra]

Short story: They get the ability to add Int to practically any roll they make (after 2nd level, they add Intelligence to all their Strength and Dexterity Checks. Including Initiative.) They also have all skills as class skills, 6+Int skill points per level, and after 8th level can spend 3 "Inspiration Points" (the main resource of the class; a small pool of points that refreshes each encounter) to get an extra standard action.

Now, since they normally only get 8 Inspiration points by 20th level, there isn't much of a problem. However, a feat called Font of Inspiration exists that can be taken a number of times equal to your intelligence modifier that adds 1+the number of other Font of Inspiration feats you had at the time of taking that particular feat.

So after taking 1, you get +1 points, total.
So after taking 2, you get +3 points, total.
So after taking 3, you get +6 points, total.
So after taking 4, you get +10 points, total.

And so on and so forth. Did I mention that a Factotum is pretty much SAD for Int, leaving only a need for Con (which can be fixed, due to Faerie Mysteries Initiate (Passion)).

Needless to say, they are a crazy class for gestalt, since most of their class features take a free action to use.

[Soft Insanity]

Mix in Knowledge Devotion for good times.  Then..get fancy and inspire the knowledge check to add your level to the roll, practically guaranteeing a +5 by level 8. (you can get +5 earlier if you milk spells)

Anyway, I'm gonna suggest Incarnate.  It's a truly passive class where-as factotum requires you do the inspiration juggle (which I consider being active).

The *problem with Factotum and Fonts is....it's a feat tax.  If it weren't for cunning surge, the need for boat loads of fonts wouldn't exist, but you would still need at least 4.

If you do go with Factotum, expect to be frustrated by the feats it eats..until level 8.  At level 8, expect the DM to hit you with the nerf bat.

[Generic_PC]

If you're particularly attached to Crusader, Crusader//Bard can be pretty fun for a team-oriented tank. High BAB, 3 good saves and 6+Int skills from a good list is a great chassis, and the bards passive buffing abilities mesh well, thematically, with White Raven Maneuvers.

I would also recommend looking very carefully at Incarnum: they're never a bad choice, and usually quite a good one!

[Dictum Mortuum]

I've played a Warforged Crusader//Artificer, it was effin ridiculous 
I had a Druid//Swordsage build somewhere, but the campaign never started and I couldn't test it out. It used a lot of boosts/counters and tiger claw maneuvers.