Author Topic: is the vermin keeper's tenth level ability really this good?  (Read 5709 times)

Offline 123456789blaaa

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Yesterday I was flipping through my pdf of Forgotten Realms: underdark when i came across the vermin keeper prc. Now this prc is mediocre at first glance but the tenth level ability seems very powerful: the vermin keeper can use wildshape to assume the form of any vermin swarm. So if I am reading this right you could take the form of a swarm of epic vermin.

I'm pretty sure that I'm reading this wrong but i wanted to make sure with you guys.
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: is the vermin keeper's tenth level ability really this good?
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2012, 09:48:58 PM »
Normal wild shape is limited by your HD.  I'm not certain this overrides that, though you could make a case for it.
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Offline snakeman830

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Re: is the vermin keeper's tenth level ability really this good?
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2012, 12:58:44 AM »
Well, I'm not aware of any Epic vermin that are Tiny or smaller (a requirement for swarms)
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: is the vermin keeper's tenth level ability really this good?
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2012, 01:03:47 AM »
Well, I'm not aware of any Epic vermin that are Tiny or smaller (a requirement for swarms)

This might help.
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Offline linklord231

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Re: is the vermin keeper's tenth level ability really this good?
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2012, 03:41:09 AM »
Even if you're not limited by Hit Dice, the Ruin Swarm doesn't look all that great for wildshaping.  You keep your old type, which means you don't get the Swarm or Vermin type benefits.  You gain Ex attacks, but not special qualities (so no fast healing or Blindsense).  You keep your own hit points and base saves, so you don't get all those HP (your saves do go up a bit from high ability scores though)
I do have to admit that although the 5d6 damage is pitiful, the blinding and distracting attacks are rather good.  They offer saves, but they're of the "you can't beat this" variety which means you're almost guaranteed to keep at least 1 enemy locked down forever, while you still have all your spellcasting (you did take Natural Spell, right?).  Assuming you came in with Druid, you trade your Animal Companion progression for a craptacular Vermin Companion, and your Wild Shape progression for a slightly accelerated but less versatile one, culminating in the Swarm Form ability.  You keep 10/10 spell progression. 
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Offline 123456789blaaa

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Re: is the vermin keeper's tenth level ability really this good?
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2012, 04:20:52 PM »
As i suspected the ability isn't as good as I thought. Was worth checking though.
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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: is the vermin keeper's tenth level ability really this good?
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2012, 06:46:28 PM »
Not that the Hive, is a good baseline for a discussion ... (evil grin)

Being a swarm = a little more juice than the original Hive. 
And a rather straight forward short cut.
The original was part of a swarm, and not as many goodies.

A normal swarm would be a decent movement and
attack form, but it'd hafta be built for those specifics.
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Offline Braininthejar

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Re: is the vermin keeper's tenth level ability really this good?
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2012, 07:48:31 PM »
As a side effect, you answered my question before I could ask it  (I was just  looking for a spider-themed druid to oppose my players)

Thanks.  :cool

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: is the vermin keeper's tenth level ability really this good?
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2012, 12:35:14 AM »
What I use the Vermin Keeper for.... The ability to get an advanced bone spear companion at 5th of the PrC

It's in Fiend Folio, and a really scary vermin companion
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Offline Braininthejar

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Re: is the vermin keeper's tenth level ability really this good?
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2012, 05:31:31 AM »
The description sais "monster manual"

Yea, it sucks.

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: is the vermin keeper's tenth level ability really this good?
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2012, 12:23:11 AM »
Right....  :(   convince your DM to increase the sources, like adding monstrous crabs and stuff too :P
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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: is the vermin keeper's tenth level ability really this good?
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2012, 04:56:24 PM »

I got Monstrous Crabs once , but not from d&d ...  :fu
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Offline zook1shoe

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Re: is the vermin keeper's tenth level ability really this good?
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2012, 05:33:33 PM »
rofl!!!

i gave people crabs several times..... i had a MtG deck that changed phelddagriff from giving hippos to crabs, and it was hilarious!
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Offline Braininthejar

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Re: is the vermin keeper's tenth level ability really this good?
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2012, 05:55:19 PM »
A sword spider would be nice...