15th level Gestalt Druid: Not sure where to go with this...

[Tshern]

Hey ya,

I am about to enter a PbP and my plan was to go with Druid. I have played a couple of Druids before, but the gestalt thing kind of threw me off, so I am not quite sure what to do. Anyway, here come the basic rules of the game and all that.

Rules:
-Starting level 15.
-36 point buy.
-Pretty much all the 3.5 books are allowed.
-Power level is high.
-75% of the normal WBL.
-The DM dislikes Wizards and I don't want to play one now.
-Planar travel, summoning and calling are out in the beginning, not sure when this changes.

I was thinking about making a melee Druid and using gestalt would provide a perfect opportunity to use some of the non-casting Druid PrCs on the other side of the build. Much to my dismay, I realised that I cannot enter Master of Many Forms without Wild shape as a class feature, so doing that before 6th level is out. As for Warshaper, I could enter at level 5 by being a Changeling, taking more than a single level would mean that I could not get the capstone ability of MoMF...

So my biggest question is, what should I with the other side of the gestalt? Warshaper's capstone is intriguing as it that of MoMF, but are they worth it? Are the better options to be used on the other side of the build? Should I even go Druid 15 on the first side? Heck, I could even go with Druid//Ardent/Slayer or Druid//Psychic Warrior if I get a persuasive argument...

These are two of the ideas that crossed my mind:
-Druid (with the variant that gain AC bonus, but loses Wildshape) 15//Wildshape Ranger 5/MoMF 10, entering Warshaper at 16.
-Druid 15//Ranger 4/Warshaper 1/MoMF 10, then continuing with Druid and Warshaper.

Better thoughts, anyone? I am really open to changing the build as long as it remains a Druid.

Edit: Neglected to mention that initially planar travel, summoning and calling are out of the question. That might change at some point though.

[sirpercival]

If you're a melee druid, you really want some Totemist in there.  I'd suggest that instead of ranger.  Warshaper 5 < MoMF 10.

[Tshern]

The Ranger idea was there for two reasons only, to get Endurance if I go MoMF or to get Track if I for decide to use Slayer. The feat requirements of MoMF suck so hard...

I considered using Totemist as well, but I have no idea what to do with it, especially with a Druid. Never used a Totemist in any build and MoI is far from being my area of expertise. Would you suggest something like Druid 15//Totemist 5//MoMF 10? Or should I instead go with manifesting to get some long-term buffs and whatnot? Taking LA in some form is an option as well..

Also, we are allowed but a single flaw and MoMF means that three feats are already locked if I pick that class (the three being Alertness, Endurance and Natural spell).

[ksbsnowowl]

Depending what you are planning to spend most of your time wildshaped into, some bonus damage on the other side could be useful.  In my 9th level gestalt game I have a Druid//Scout NPC that gets +4d6 skirmish damage with each of his 5 charge attacks (tiger form).*

*He's a Scout 5 plus other multi-classing stuff, and Improved Skirmish.

My PC Druid//Sorcerer saw the mauling that caused, and picked up Arcane Strike.  When the time is right, he'll dump a 4th level spell for +4 to attack and +4d4 to damage, with each attack.  He's charging for two claws and two rakes, each at +18 to hit, plus the bite.

We just added an Archivist to the party, and last night he whipped out Lore of the Gods and a dark knowledge check to give everyone +3d6 damage.  The druids loved him.

On the other side, I suggest staying away from sneak attack.  Out of 4 player characters, three of them have uncanny dodge, and some have improved uncanny dodge.  It may not be an issue in your game, but I basically can't sneak attack my PC's.

Maybe take that Master of Many Forms build and swap out wildshape ranger for scout?  Again, depends what you are planning to be wildshaped into.  Cave troll would still allow you to pounce.  As would a Rage Drake.

Edit:  Scout's bonus feat at 4th level would allow you to pick up Endurance, or Track.

[sirpercival]

IIRC there's a race that grants you Endurance as a bonus feat...

Totemist would mostly be for boosting your natural attacks.  There's a ton of good stuff in there... I bet Totemist 5/MoMF 10 would work very nicely for you.

[Tshern]

If I go with Human or Strongheart Halfling, that doesn't really matter though. Druids don't need that many feats, especially since there is no use for all the nice summoning feats. I'll try to figure Totemists out before I decide anything about that.

The Scout idea is intriguing as well, could work if I managed to stock a ton of attacks!

Are there good reasons why I should steer away from MoMF or is that a solid choice? Pretty much all options are open.

[Ithamar]

You really only need 7 levels of MoMF, the rest is just gravy.  That will let you be a War Troll or Cryo-Hydra, which are the optimal combat forms until you hit 18 HD for the Greater Dusk Giant.  I'd suggest squeezing in Fist of the Forest for at least 1 level obviously.

Perhaps something like:  Fighter 2 / Unarmed Swordsage 2 / Fist of the Forest 1 / MoMF 7 / Warshaper 3 / Whatever 1

Alternately, go with the Swift & Deadly Druid on one side, fill up the other side with an impressively strong creature (assuming HD & LA only take up 1 side), and then go Saint.  You'll get WIS to AC twice, great DR, Fast Healing, and all the awesomeness of being a druid.  If you don't care about your animal companion, trade it for the Raging Druid variant.  And you can still splash Fist of the Forest for extra AC.

[Tshern]

I am not totally against the idea of only taking seven levels of MoMF either. That would free three levels and that can be used for a lot of stuff. The idea of persisting Bite of the Werebear strikes to me as amazing, so perhaps a Sacred Exorcist dip is in order. However, keeping the 15th Druid level is rather excellent, because I could use that to get some tasty bonuses to all the mental stats!

Assuming I go for MoMF 7, I would still have 8 levels to play with on that side of the build.

[sirpercival]

Can you use Dragon Mag?  Wild Reaper druid loses very little and gives you turn undead at level 12.  Plus fast healing and fast ability healing at high level.

[Tshern]

Can you use Dragon Mag?  Wild Reaper druid loses very little and gives you turn undead at level 12.  Plus fast healing and fast ability healing at high level.

I can always ask, it has not been explicitly denied and others are using homebrew and whatnot. Do happen to recall the exact issue?

Edit: 311 seems to be the magic number.

[Halinn]

With MoMF 7, you can get Warshaper 4 right away (as a changeling). That seems a good place to be at. And you could continue progressing the last few levels as MoMF to pick up those last bits that are missing (or finish Warshaper)

[JohnnyMayHymn]

Edit: Neglected to mention that initially planar travel, summoning and calling are out of the question. That might change at some point though.

Well, there goes my Druid 5, Planar Shepherd 10, Druid 5 // Binder 15, KoSS 5 idea, that focuses on summoning

If the power level really is high, what about dipping arcane swordsage for spamming the polymorph line?  I like MoMF and the EX abilities are verisimilitudinous, but are they worth 7(or 10) levels?  There's that spell that gives (EX) abilities, combined with frozen wild shape, dragon wild shape, exalted wild shape or aberrant wild shape.  You would be spending 3 feats to get into MoMF anyway.
That could leave the other side open for, dmm cloistered cleric(choose Obad-hai for more turning pools) or ardent or whatever.

[Tshern]

Edit: Neglected to mention that initially planar travel, summoning and calling are out of the question. That might change at some point though.

Well, there goes my Druid 5, Planar Shepherd 10, Druid 5 // Binder 15, KoSS 5 idea, that focuses on summoning

If the power level really is high, what about dipping arcane swordsage for spamming the polymorph line?  I like MoMF and the EX abilities are verisimilitudinous, but are they worth 7(or 10) levels?  There's that spell that gives (EX) abilities, combined with frozen wild shape, dragon wild shape, exalted wild shape or aberrant wild shape.  You would be spending 3 feats to get into MoMF anyway.
That could leave the other side open for, dmm cloistered cleric(choose Obad-hai for more turning pools) or ardent or whatever.

The latest news is that summoning is allowed, but if you do summon creatures, after duration of the spell expires, the creatures do not leave and become hostile. It would be a real nuisance to beat them to submission every time. High caster level combined with something like Blasphemy would take care of that though.

Good point about Enhanced wildshape, I had forgotten that spell. It would block my access to some of the tastier wildshape forms though. Using the spell would open a world of new possibilities though, since it would free two feats and seven levels. Cloistered Cleric with some judicious prestige class spamming would bring a lot of versatility and raw power. Action economy probably wouldn't be a problem, since I will focus on melee anyway. Cloistered Cleric would open the DMM option, along with Knowledge devotion, a load of utility spells and buffs as well as some less obvious options like Holy warrior. The very thought of Druid 5/Planar Shepherd 10//Cloistered Cleric 15 makes me laugh. Oddly enough, that seems to be around equal to the power level of some of the characters I have seen so far.

[Halinn]

The latest news is that summoning is allowed, but if you do summon creatures, after duration of the spell expires, the creatures do not leave and become hostile. It would be a real nuisance to beat them to submission every time. High caster level combined with something like Blasphemy would take care of that though.

So, what you're saying is that you, as a class feature, will be getting easy experience points?

[Dictum Mortuum]

Be a Druid//Bard, summon stuff like a crazy person, then buff them with inspire courage. After they turn hostile, just summon a unicorn (or something with magic circle against evil), or just buff yourself with protection from evil (it's available through greensinger initiate (? not sure).

Earn easy xp.

[emaNsdrawkcaB]

Or be a Shifter and go Totemist 2/ Ranger 4/ Weretouched Master (Tiger) 5/ Barbarian 1/ Totem Rager 8

Feats include:

Shape Soulmeld (Therapeutic Mantle),
Shifter Acrobatics,
Shifter Stealth,
Multiattack,
Martial Stance (Martial Spirit),
Share Soulmelds,
Bonus Essentia,
Shifter Savagery,
Cobalt Rage,
Great Bite,
Double Chakra (Totem).
Shuffle the feats around accordingly, depending on what level you start at. Fit in Natural Spell too.

Shifter Druid racial sub. levels 4 and 5.
Shifter Ranger racial subs. levels 1 and 4
Champion of the Wild Ranger alternate class feature.
Arcane Hunter alternate class feature.
Distracting Attack alternate class feature. (Eyes in the Back of your Head? Free feats are free feats...)

You become a melee monster. Your animal companion becomes more of a melee monster, because every Shifter related ability as well as all your soulmelds are transferred to it (pounce?). You heal yourself (or your team) with every strike, of which you'll have many.

Two monsters for the price of one.

EDIT: It might be better to go back to Totemist instead of picking up Barbarian 1 and Totem Rager. Yeah, I'd do that.

[Ithamar]

Just "pretend" to be a Druid by going:

Archivist || Wild Shape Ranger / Master of Many Forms / Warshaper

You'll get all of the best spells (including ones for Favoured Enemies), Knowledge Devo, all of the nature'y skills, tracking, etc.

Or can you just be a Divine Minion into MoMF? 

[Tshern]

Or be a Shifter and go Totemist 2/ Ranger 4/ Weretouched Master (Tiger) 5/ Barbarian 1/ Totem Rager 8

Feats include:

Shape Soulmeld (Therapeutic Mantle),
Shifter Acrobatics,
Shifter Stealth,
Multiattack,
Martial Stance (Martial Spirit),
Share Soulmelds,
Bonus Essentia,
Shifter Savagery,
Cobalt Rage,
Great Bite,
Double Chakra (Totem).
Shuffle the feats around accordingly, depending on what level you start at. Fit in Natural Spell too.

Shifter Druid racial sub. levels 4 and 5.
Shifter Ranger racial subs. levels 1 and 4
Champion of the Wild Ranger alternate class feature.
Arcane Hunter alternate class feature.
Distracting Attack alternate class feature. (Eyes in the Back of your Head? Free feats are free feats...)

You become a melee monster. Your animal companion becomes more of a melee monster, because every Shifter related ability as well as all your soulmelds are transferred to it (pounce?). You heal yourself (or your team) with every strike, of which you'll have many.

Two monsters for the price of one.

EDIT: It might be better to go back to Totemist instead of picking up Barbarian 1 and Totem Rager. Yeah, I'd do that.

Oh lord, that looks like a vicious beast. The problem is that as a Shifter I would only seven feats available, one of which just has to be Natural spell (otherwise it would not be a Druid). Assuming I would, at level 15, pick six of the feats you suggested, what would you go for? How about the level progression at 15th level?

Just "pretend" to be a Druid by going:

Archivist || Wild Shape Ranger / Master of Many Forms / Warshaper

You'll get all of the best spells (including ones for Favoured Enemies), Knowledge Devo, all of the nature'y skills, tracking, etc.

Or can you just be a Divine Minion into MoMF? 

With maybe a tiiiiiiiny dip for DMM tossed in, right? That would give the nice level 13 aspect of Dark knowledge and that could be Hilarious with Lore of the Gods, Scrolls of Uncertain Provenance and masterwork tools (those alone would grant +17 if I worship a deity that has the Knowledge domain). I guess I could go for the Wild Shape Ranger side and use Cloistered Cleric too, if I want to avoid dipping and get DMM...

[zioth]

Warshaper reduces your max HD. You can get around this, though by using OA's Shapeshifter with the Dragon Magazine update for 3.5. It lets you use your character level for HD instead of your class level. A really good melee wild shaper (but not spellcaster) would look something like this:

Changeling Shapeshifter 1 / Ranger 3 / Monk 2 / Fist of the Forest 1 / Warshaper 5 / Nature's Warrior 3 //
Ranger 3 / Whatever 5 / MoMF7

Nature's Warrior 3 arguably advances Improved Wild Shape to 10th level.

With a Monk's Belt, this gives you 2d10 unarmed strike damage (goes way up when taking really large forms), 15th level wild shape, tons of forms and some nice extra abilities too. It has no spellcasting or animal companion though.

[emaNsdrawkcaB]

Longtooth Shifter

1 - Druid // Totemist - Shape Soulmeld (Therapeutic Mantle), Martial Stance (Martial Spirit)(Flaw)
2 - Druid // Totemist -
3 - Druid // Ranger - Longtooth Elite, Track (Ranger Bonus)
4 - Druid // Ranger - Two Weapon Fighting (Ranger Bonus)
5 - Druid // Ranger - Endurance (Ranger Bonus)
6 - Druid // Ranger - Natural Spell
7 - Druid // Weretouched Master -
8 - Druid // Weretouched Master - Shifter Multiattack (Weretouched Bonus)
9 - Druid // Warblade - Bonus Essentia
10 - Druid // Weretouched Master -
11 - Druid // Weretouched Master - Shifter Stealth (Weretouched Bonus)
12 - Druid // Weretouched Master - Open Lesser Chakra (Arms) (I suggest Girallon Arms for Rend... Nice.)
13 - Druid // Bloodclaw Master -
14 - Druid // Totemist -
15 - Druid // Totemist - Share Soulmelds
16 - Druid // Totemist -
17 - Druid // Totemist -
18 - Druid // Totemist - Feat
19 - Druid // Totemist -
20 - Druid // Totemist -

Druid 20 // Shifter Totemist 9/ Ranger 4/ Weretouched Master (Tiger) 5/ Warblade 1/ Bloodclaw Master 1

Shifter Druid racial sub. levels 4 and 5.
Shifter Ranger racial subs. levels 1 and 4
Arcane Hunter alternate class feature.
Distracting Attack alternate class feature.

Maneuvers/ Stances:
Iron Heart Surge
Wall of Blades
White Raven Tactics
Leading the Charge (Not a bad way to start battles, with pounce...)

Spend some money on a Martial Spirit stance item for your companion, and they'll heal too.