Author Topic: Need Advice for Low Epic Levels....  (Read 9568 times)

Offline Iskajir

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Need Advice for Low Epic Levels....
« on: June 05, 2012, 03:13:31 AM »
Ok, so I am in an Age of Worms campaign, and we are moving rapidly towards epic. 28 pt buy, started at level one. Group is now 17th-18th, and anticipating seeing ~23rd-24th before its over. I have no clue what prestige classes/feats might be sweet through here. Difficulty: no retraining at all. Core, Completes, and Races of X only, with very rare exceptions. No setting-based material. No Spell Compendium. No custom Items. MIC with approval only.


Everyone Else:
Favored Soul 17- buff/heal/melee
Ranger 14/Order of the Bow Initiate 3- shoots arrows at  things; occasionally hits.
Ranger 9/Rogue 9 with homebrewed "swift hunter" esque feat- TWF, mobile damage dealer
Barbarian 7/Bear Warrior 10/ Warshaper 1- has teeth will travel.


Me: Human Sorcerer 7/Ruathar 3/Abjurant Champion 5/Archmage 2. Built for flexibility: buff, debuff, BFC, and blast, with a side job as party taxi. Mastery of Elements and Shaping, with my eye on Arcane Reach.

Feats
(click to show/hide)

Spells Known
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Prestige Classes I am looking at:
Paragnostic Apostle- bonuses seem uninspiring for this level. +1 DC, +2 Spell Penetration, +2 AC, +1 Caster Level, etc. Better than nothing.
Fate Spinner- Nothing wrong with it, just uninspiring,
MotAO- nixed by DM. "Too cheesy" to use Arcane Prep to qualify.
Mindbender- remember that 28 pt buy. yeah.... I dumped INT. No skill points to swing this.
Wild Mage- yuck.
Divine Oracle- I have a ring of evasion. Oracle domain is uninspiring.

Feats at 18th: whatever I need for a prestige class with nice toys. Otherwise, Maximize Spell for Blasting/Debuffing Enhancement

Feats @ 21st: ???? Improved Spell Capacity, Spell Knowledge, Familiar Spell???

High Level Spells-
8th- Maze or MoP
9th- Time Stop, Reaving Dispel, Wish

Any ideas? Any help at all would rock. I'd be glad to add any info you need.

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Need Advice for Low Epic Levels....
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2012, 07:37:25 AM »
Does Core mean SRD?  If so, psionics are in the SRD... which means you can Limited Wish -> Psychic Reformation to swap out your crappy low feats.
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Offline Captnq

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Re: Need Advice for Low Epic Levels....
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2012, 08:59:38 AM »
Feats
H. Point Blank Shot
1. Precise Shot (rays were sweet at low levels *sigh*)
3. Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
6. Spell Focus (conjuartion)
9. Combat Casting
12. Empower Spell
15. Spell Focus (evocation)

Okay. Uh. Are you serious?

Okay, Point blank and precise shot, I can understand. It will continue to be useful with disintegrate. Skill Focus (Spellcraft)... why? I mean... why? Spend 900 gp and buy yourself a +3 skill bonus as a magic item if that's so important. Or did you need it to qualify for some PrC?

Spell focus conjuration... Okay... It adds to your save DCs, I'll give you that, but many conjuration spells have no save DC, so you could just get around it with spell selection.

Combat Casting: How many times did you use this feat? I'm curious because I only saw one player take it once and he never used it. Ever.

Empower Spell: The single greatest Metamagic feat. Good choice.

Spell Focus (Evocation): Seriously? This had better be for some PrC qualification or something.

-----

Why do you not have quicken and rapid metamagic (Complete Divine)?

Holy Crap. Just, go over to Handbook: The Spellbook and download sections SSI, SSII and forward both to your DM. Ask him to copy it to a word file and remove anything he's not playing with.

Tell me he allows access to metamagic rods.

8- Mind Blank, Greater Arcane Fusion
7- Greater Teleport, Prismatic Spray, Limited Wish
6-Superior Resistance, Fires of Purity (CD version), Disintegrate
5- Telekenesis, Lightning Leap, Arcane Fusion, Freezing Fog (CA version)
4- Greater Mirror Image (nerfed to a swift action), Assay SR, Evard's BT, Orb of Fire
3- Haste, Fly, Greater Mage Armor, Ray of Exhaustion
2- Escalating Enfeeblement, Scorching Ray, Glitterdust, Alter Self, Ray of Stupidity
1-Shield, Ray of Clumsiness, Grease, Benign Transposition, Magic Missile

I take it Dragon's of Faerun DRAGONBLOOD SPELL-PACT is out.

I assume he's not allowing Dragon Magic or you'd have Arcane Spellsurge.

You are going for arcane reach. Why did you pass up vampiric touch?

You took Arcane fusion, why not true strike to make your rays never miss? True Casting incase of SR?

Superior Resistance. You don't have extend spell but you took this one? Tell me you have metamagic extend rod.

Prismatic Spray: I enjoy sending my loot to another universe!

You have telekinesis. TELL ME you have a spiked chain that would give a titan an inferiority complex for throwing at people.

Freezing FOG. You took this spell? Really? I take it you are into reducing you enemies' movement, seeing you have grease. How's it been working out for you?



That's off the top of my head. I'll await your answers.
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Offline betrayor

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Re: Need Advice for Low Epic Levels....
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2012, 09:04:03 AM »
Epic Spellcasting if it is allowed,and then it is ridicusly easy to create long duration buffs for very low-costs......

Offline Captnq

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Re: Need Advice for Low Epic Levels....
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2012, 09:20:59 AM »
Oh, don't dismiss wild mage.

Remember, all spells are reduced 3, then you add 1d6. All spells gain this. ALL SPELLS.
You have empower spell. Now all empowered spells are empowered 1d6 x 1.5 levels. Your average spell level is increased 2.25 for all empowered spells for one level of wild mage. Metamagic Rod Maximize becomes downright evil.
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Re: Need Advice for Low Epic Levels....
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2012, 09:24:30 AM »
Oh, don't dismiss wild mage.

Remember, all spells are reduced 3, then you add 1d6. All spells gain this. ALL SPELLS.
You have empower spell. Now all empowered spells are empowered 1d6 x 1.5 levels. Your average spell level is increased 2.25 for all empowered spells for one level of wild mage. Metamagic Rod Maximize becomes downright evil.
If you have practiced spellcaster Wild mage becomes even greater.....

Offline Iskajir

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Re: Need Advice for Low Epic Levels....
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2012, 10:02:07 AM »
Re: psionics-- I shot DM an email. We'll see. Hopefully won't get a second edition knee-jerk "no". Never played with him before, and noone in the group had much interest in psionics.

Skill Focus (Spellcraft)- archmage

Spell focus conjuration/Spell Focus (Evocation)- Archmage again.
Combat Casting- prereq for Abjurant Champion. And yes, I've auto-succeeded on every casting defensively check for many levels. It didn't hurt. Much.
Empower Spell: The single greatest Metamagic feat. Good choice.  Thanks, I think.

Why do you not have quicken and rapid metamagic (Complete Divine)?

With Abjurant Champion's Auto-Quicken, a few spells, and a few items, I've never lacked for a good swift action in many levels. I'm not sure spending two feats to open up more swift actions is really going to be that awesome. If PsyRef winds up on the table, it might be an option, but I'm not convinced at this point.

Tell me he allows access to metamagic rods.
I have an efficient quiver full of them.

I take it Dragon's of Faerun DRAGONBLOOD SPELL-PACT is out.- setting-based. See OP.

I assume he's not allowing Dragon Magic or you'd have Arcane Spellsurge. Bingo. As per OP.

You are going for arcane reach. Why did you pass up vampiric touch? 1. I like it better on an SA build. 2. Age of Worms has a large percentage of encounters with undead. 3. I am not taking enough damage to gain the full benefit of the healing/temp hp. Not even close.

You took Arcane fusion, why not true strike to make your rays never miss? I have a high enough DEX/BAB/modifiers that I have only missed on natural ones in a very long time.

 True Casting incase of SR? Assay SR, a few CL boosting items, and I'm not having a problem. Another +10 might be nice, but the SR 29 on our most recent boss battle was a cake walk.

Superior Resistance. You don't have extend spell but you took this one? Tell me you have metamagic extend rod. Yup. Sure do. And extended again from Extended Abjuartion class feature (which though I think should last 3 days, per DM it's 4, and I'm not one to argue such things.)

Prismatic Spray: I enjoy sending my loot to another universe! 60' cone of mook-blasting. We are WELL above WBL, so I'm thinking that we're doing ok.

You have telekinesis. TELL ME you have a spiked chain that would give a titan an inferiority complex for throwing at people. Nope, but Age of Worms has a lot of cliffs, spires, gaping pits, and precarious ledges. Terminal velocity at the end of a bull-rush induced fall is 20d6. Not bad for the level. And doesn't include the acid pool, lava pit, or carpet of carnivorous insects at the bottom. Grappled mooks are SA-vulnerable. Disarmed NPC's really miss those weapons, wands, and anything more loosely attached than the Hand of Vecna itself. Not mention non-combat utility.

Freezing FOG. You took this spell? Really? I take it you are into reducing you enemies' movement, seeing you have grease. How's it been working out for you? Well, Grease is a little dated at this point, but my rogue is still loving it. A rod of Lesser Sculpt helps. Freezing fog is definitive mook control for anything without FoM. Not the boss usually these days, but it gives the Giant Bear, and the little stabby anime rogue  a chance to gang up on things. Add EBT and nothing is going anywhere until I say so (again barring FoM).

Epic Spellcasting if it is allowed,and then it is ridicusly easy to create long duration buffs for very low-costs......
Well, so far we have had nearly no downtime. If I remember right, researching epic spells is pretty time intensive....? I'll definitely look into it though.


Oh, don't dismiss wild mage.

Remember, all spells are reduced 3, then you add 1d6. All spells gain this. ALL SPELLS.
You have empower spell. Now all empowered spells are empowered 1d6 x 1.5 levels. Your average spell level is increased 2.25 for all empowered spells for one level of wild mage. Metamagic Rod Maximize becomes downright evil.
This feels like it will not pass the DM's delicate cheese-detecting nose. He's against using Arcane Prep for MotAO, and that's pretty clearly RAW to me. Even then, it would only be worth one level..... everything after that is hardly better than sorcerer. That still leaves 3 levels........... And, even assuming PsyRef,  cross-class UMD ranks are going to be hard to come by... likely at the expense of my concentration skill.

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Need Advice for Low Epic Levels....
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2012, 10:15:03 AM »
I'd disagree that Empower is the best metamagic feat... by a long shot.

Here are a couple more ideas.
(a) See if your DM will allow a non-racial adaptation of Shadowcraft Mage. Alternatively, a non-racial adaptation of Recaster (Races of Eberron is not a setting-specific book, the races were all reprinted in MMs).
(b) Dip for divine casting and go into Dweomerkeeper
(c) Epic Spellcasting is a broken system.  See if your DM will accept this instead, it's much cleaner and still allows some serious fun.
(d) Loremaster could be good, it's not bad for a mostly-core prc.  Dracolexi could be fun as well.
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Offline Captnq

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Re: Need Advice for Low Epic Levels....
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2012, 10:30:15 AM »
Skill Focus (Spellcraft)- archmage
Spell focus conjuration/Spell Focus (Evocation)- Archmage again.
Combat Casting- prereq for Abjurant Champion. And yes, I've auto-succeeded on every casting defensively check for many levels. It didn't hurt. Much.
Now see, this is why Archmage never impressed me. 3 feats flushed away.


Why do you not have quicken and rapid metamagic (Complete Divine)?
With Abjurant Champion's Auto-Quicken, a few spells, and a few items, I've never lacked for a good swift action in many levels. I'm not sure spending two feats to open up more swift actions is really going to be that awesome. If PsyRef winds up on the table, it might be an option, but I'm not convinced at this point.

As good a reason as any, but if he's allowing epic feats, The mage in the group has been going to town with Epic Quicken.

Speed Kills.

You are going for arcane reach. Why did you pass up vampiric touch? 1. I like it better on an SA build. 2. Age of Worms has a large percentage of encounters with undead. 3. I am not taking enough damage to gain the full benefit of the healing/temp hp. Not even close.
Ah. have you considered energize spell, then? Or is Libris Mortus out?

You have telekinesis. TELL ME you have a spiked chain that would give a titan an inferiority complex for throwing at people. Nope, but Age of Worms has a lot of cliffs, spires, gaping pits, and precarious ledges. Terminal velocity at the end of a bull-rush induced fall is 20d6. Not bad for the level. And doesn't include the acid pool, lava pit, or carpet of carnivorous insects at the bottom. Grappled mooks are SA-vulnerable. Disarmed NPC's really miss those weapons, wands, and anything more loosely attached than the Hand of Vecna itself. Not mention non-combat utility.

Have you considered Master of the Unseen Hand (When you get to epic and no longer have to worry about advancing as a spell caster? (Complete Scoundrel)


If you have practiced spellcaster Wild mage becomes even greater.....
Ya know, I forgot about that. I was toying with an ultimate magus build the other day. I should reconcider wild mage. I just hate losing a feat to qualify for a prestige class. Magical Aptitude is a lost feat, IMHO
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Offline Captnq

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Re: Need Advice for Low Epic Levels....
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2012, 10:51:45 AM »
I'd disagree that Empower is the best metamagic feat... by a long shot.

Uh-huh. Given the wide selection of Metamagic Feats, which single metamagic feat would YOU take?

Empower is almost universal in it's use. It is the cheapest way to exceed the 1d6/level limit. Empowered versions of damage spells frequently out perform normal damage spells of the same level.


Runner ups:
Extend is very good, but the rod is cheap as hell and nobody extended an enemy to death (I dislike DoT, btw)
Quicken is very nice, but expensive and not available for any sort of practical use until 9th.
Black Lore of Moil: Very cool. Style isn't nearly as important as results.
Chain: Spiffy feat. Limited in scope and use.
Energize: Limited to only undead.
Maximize: +3 level adjustment? Sorry. Not worth it. Empowered Avg damage frequently exceeds the max damage of a maximized spell.
Split Ray: Very Nice. Twin Spell for +2 level adjustment, but only with rays. Empower beats it for versatility
Sudden Maximize/empower: Ya know, it's up there on my list, but the prereqs prohibits being your only metamagic feat.

Obscure ones:
Ray Coning: Very Nice, but I said 1 single metamagic feat. This feat isn't that useful without the use of other feats along with it.
Ray Extension: Repeat Spell for rays. Very nice, ray only. Empower wins.
Ray Splitting: Also very nice. Again, ray only, empower wins.

So, if you have a reason for why a +2 adjustment for x1.5 to every variable isn't the bomb, please. Enlighten me

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Offline sirpercival

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Re: Need Advice for Low Epic Levels....
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2012, 11:04:06 AM »
I've never used Empower, and I've never built a character with it (or seen it in a game I've played in).  Now, I must admit that I don't play blasters in general, so I have no need of it.

Agreed that Extend is best in rod-form, and in that case is runner-up.

In terms of metamagic feats that I would take and use, the three I use most often are Invisible Spell, Sanctum Spell, and Sculpt Spell.  I only use higher than +1 adjustments if I have some sort of metamagic cost reduction; that includes Quicken.  Chain is better from a Rod because it's so limited.  Honestly, other than the three above, I never use metamagic except in rod form.

This is not including my Shadowcraft Mages.  They have much more fun, with Arcane Thesis (Silent Image) and Heighten, Widen, etc.
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Re: Need Advice for Low Epic Levels....
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2012, 11:59:50 AM »
I've never used Empower, and I've never built a character with it (or seen it in a game I've played in).  Now, I must admit that I don't play blasters in general, so I have no need of it.

I suppose if you never plan on draining, damaging, or using anything with a variable amount of anything, empower would fall off your list.

In terms of metamagic feats that I would take and use, the three I use most often are Invisible Spell, Sanctum Spell, and Sculpt Spell.  I only use higher than +1 adjustments if I have some sort of metamagic cost reduction; that includes Quicken.  Chain is better from a Rod because it's so limited.  Honestly, other than the three above, I never use metamagic except in rod form.

If you ignore wealth by level, okay, a rod is the way to go.

An empower rod is 9000 gp. the WBL of 5th level wizard is... 9000 gp. At high levels, sure. Rods are the way to go. but you can only use one rod on a spell at a time. I'd prefer to spend my money on a quicken rod or maximize rod and empower it myself.

Now as for invisible, I can see this if you are doing the arcane spellsurge sorcerer thing. Arcane spellsurge is a 7th level spell. You'd use invisible spell at 5th level? Why? How many 1st thru 3rd level spells benefit from this feat in comparison to the wide selection of spells that empower benefits.

Sanctum? Useful for some weird spell cheese, but you usually can't take avantage of that cheese until higher level. I have yet to see a single spell that I'd use this feat on. (Although if someone has the Sanctum Spell Handbook, I'd love a link)


Maybe I need to redefine the parameters. You seem to be speaking about the feats from your own play style. I'm thinking of a metamagic feat that you would take at 1st to 5th level and can keep using as you progress in level up to 20th and never find yourself going, "Damn, this feat is taking up space." This is in comparison across all classes and playing styles. Yes, some feats are situationally superior to empower. Split Ray beats Empower when casting disintegrate. No question about it. If I was ranking feats, split ray is still in the top 5, but empower is still number one.

I saw one player go with only sudden feats, mind you. Admittedly, her spells weren't that impressive, but once a day, LOOK OUT, an Empowered, Maximized, Widened something smacking you upside the head.

Now, invisible spell, I've been working out weird things you can use this feat for. Create Trap turns nasty with invisible spell. I suppose if you are an illusionist/controller type, invisible spell would be up there, since one could start using it at 1st level.

But for a cleric, invisible spell would be next to useless. Druid, ditto. Across classes and across spellcasting types, empower has much more versatility then invisible, sanctum, or sculpt.

Now Sculpt, that has some punch. Burning Hands goes from 15' to 40'. I'll give you that.

But I think you are falling into the trap of assuming that higher level spells beat metamagic improved spells. Why cast Empowered fireball when Cone of Cold is better? Because at 9th level, Empowered Fireball kicks Cone of cold's ass. At 15th level, cone of cold is better, even if the damage is the same, because of the better save DC.

It's not just spell level... it's Spell Level, Caster Level, Saving Throws, To Hit, Spell Resistance, Spell Synergy, Feat Synergy, Spell Caster Class, and Spell Caster Party Role. Empower is more things to more people then Invisible or Sculpt ever could be. Also, I'm simply unimpressed with Sanctum. But if you have some Brilliant use for it I'm overlooking then please do share.

[Side note: I should add this to Handbook: The Spell Book. Speaking of, if you have a strong opinion about metamagic feats, feel free to download section SSII from my handbook then write up your opinions of why certain metamagic feats rock and other suck. I'm more then happy to include any and all opinions about the feats. I may list it as a Minority Opinion, because I've already scowered the internet and got most people's opinions and summed them up. But I promise to only change spelling, format, and grammar errors. The intent will remain as you write it. Just post your opinions in the Discussion area.]

Do note, if you have some sort of feat combo that is so overpowering that it wins every time, I will reconsider my position on Empower. I dunno, some invisible spell that lets you mind control a god or something. But it would have to be damn impressive to boot empower off the number one spot.
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: Need Advice for Low Epic Levels....
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2012, 12:12:38 PM »
You're approaching this from the perspective of a blaster, which is fine, but is neither the only focus or even the most optimal.  You're talking about Fireballs and Burning Hands, but I never use those either... when I play a wizard I always ban evocation first.  You want a 1st-level damage spell?  Hail of Stone is much better than Burning Hands.  You talk a lot about Disintegrate, but I don't use that extremely often... sure it does a ton of damage, but only if they fail their save.  There are much more ways to buff saves than DCs, which means no-save spells, or spells that have better failed-save effects than 5d6 damage, are superior.

I usually do BFC.  For BFC, Invisible and Sculpt are king.  Sanctum I use a lot for playing with spell level limits... Arcane Fusion is a good example of this for a sorcerer, but what about Glyph of Warding?  Shalantha's Delicate Disk?  Any affect that can be loaded with a maximum spell level can access a higher spell level by Sanctum-down.

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Offline Captnq

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Re: Need Advice for Low Epic Levels....
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2012, 01:54:03 PM »
You're approaching this from the perspective of a blaster, which is fine, but is neither the only focus or even the most optimal.  You're talking about Fireballs and Burning Hands, but I never use those either... when I play a wizard I always ban evocation first.  You want a 1st-level damage spell?  Hail of Stone is much better than Burning Hands.  You talk a lot about Disintegrate, but I don't use that extremely often... sure it does a ton of damage, but only if they fail their save.  There are much more ways to buff saves than DCs, which means no-save spells, or spells that have better failed-save effects than 5d6 damage, are superior.

I usually do BFC.  For BFC, Invisible and Sculpt are king.  Sanctum I use a lot for playing with spell level limits... Arcane Fusion is a good example of this for a sorcerer, but what about Glyph of Warding?  Shalantha's Delicate Disk?  Any affect that can be loaded with a maximum spell level can access a higher spell level by Sanctum-down.

I'm using the blaster PoV because it's the obvious choice.

As a cleric, you can spontaniously cast Cure or Inflict spells. Doesn't say anything about casting Heal or Harm. Lets say you don't have a Heal spell but do have 6th level spell. You can drop it, spend a full round action to cast, and you have an empowered cure critical.

Many Conjuration spells have no save DC and work well with empower. Your Glyph of Warding for example. As for Shalantha's Delicate Disk, I would like to point out that spells are considered the original level when modified by a metamagic feat. A +2 empower, it will get me a 7th level spell in the disk, where as your sanctum only allows 6th level spells in the disk.

Empower will work on Hail of stone just as well (BTW, the one round casting time does not impress me. Speed Kills) I assume you are sculpting the AoE of Hail of stones so it does not suck. Burning hands cost to damage ratio murders hail of stones once you have more then one target. Unless of course you fight out in the open often and engage your enemy at 100 ft range on a regular basis.

Personally, I'd use sculpt over empower for burning hands. Empower maxes out burning hands at caster level 5. At 6th level, empowered burning hands falls out of your spell list.

I'm not saying that empower would be better for you. Clearly with the spells you prefer, it would not. I'm more discussing over all. My focus has been on all spells and all feats. As I plug in the numbers over and over, empower wins. It gives Clerics 5th and 6th level spells that heal one subject significantly more then mass cure light wounds or mass cure serious ever could. It gives Summoned nature's allies more hit points. It gives Sorcerers more use out of a given spell so he doesn't have to duplicate the same spell at a higher level to get more punch. Wizards can never have enough hit points, so an empowered false life is hardly a waste of a spell. Even Shadow magic spells can benefit from Empower, if you need some illusion examples.

Any spell with a variable amount benefits from Empower and if you compare a spell of that same level to the empowered spell, empower wins out at the low end of caster levels, and loses as you advance. Empower smooths out your spell progression so there arn't as many 'jumps'. Even factoring a -2 to save DC (which need not always apply), the statistical average points towards Empower.

Yes, empower, like most metamagic feats, does far better with damage on the front end then on the back end. I'll give you that Saving throws are the weak spot of empower. And sculpt is great for low level AoE spells. I just find more uses for an empower across classes and levels then I do for anything else.

I'm not speaking as a player, but as a DM. I never get to play, I just get to make up NPCs and fight the players. I've made a hundred different builds and Empower comes up time and time again as to what strikes fear in a PCs heart. When I get sneaky, the NPCs get to pull off a trick or two, then the players adapt. Once something get past them, they build a defense against it and it never works twice. You should see the monk. Honestly, I just roll the dice and hope for natural 20's at this point. Proud to say they haven't gotten bored yet.

I have yet to find a spellcaster that doesn't use empower on something.
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Offline betrayor

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Re: Need Advice for Low Epic Levels....
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2012, 02:50:14 PM »
About epic spellcasting,you should be able to lower the dc that much that even one day would be enough.....
Now if you don't even have one day then yes Epic spellcasting won't be that usable unless your dm lets you find stone tablets for loot....(you can learn epic spells for free from them)

@SirPercival Sure, epic spellcasting is broken but I was suggesting because it is within the books that the OP gave.....
And I think that with a good Dm the system can sort of work since all the Epic Spells need Dm approval......

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Need Advice for Low Epic Levels....
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2012, 03:12:49 PM »
Even a smidge of concentrated C.O.-ing
is gonna make you better to much better
than the rest of the party.  And then you'll
have to pull your punches to keep everyone  :)



This feat gives you more options of total dominance party complimentarity.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#spellKnowledge

Spell Knowledge [Epic]
Prerequisite

Ability to cast spells of the maximum normal spell level of an arcane spellcasting class.
Benefit

You learn two new arcane spells of any level up to the maximum level you can cast. This feat does not grant any additional spell slots.
Special

** You can gain this feat multiple times.


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Offline sirpercival

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Re: Need Advice for Low Epic Levels....
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2012, 03:34:30 PM »
You're approaching this from the perspective of a blaster, which is fine, but is neither the only focus or even the most optimal.  You're talking about Fireballs and Burning Hands, but I never use those either... when I play a wizard I always ban evocation first.  You want a 1st-level damage spell?  Hail of Stone is much better than Burning Hands.  You talk a lot about Disintegrate, but I don't use that extremely often... sure it does a ton of damage, but only if they fail their save.  There are much more ways to buff saves than DCs, which means no-save spells, or spells that have better failed-save effects than 5d6 damage, are superior.

I usually do BFC.  For BFC, Invisible and Sculpt are king.  Sanctum I use a lot for playing with spell level limits... Arcane Fusion is a good example of this for a sorcerer, but what about Glyph of Warding?  Shalantha's Delicate Disk?  Any affect that can be loaded with a maximum spell level can access a higher spell level by Sanctum-down.

I'm using the blaster PoV because it's the obvious choice.

As a cleric, you can spontaniously cast Cure or Inflict spells. Doesn't say anything about casting Heal or Harm. Lets say you don't have a Heal spell but do have 6th level spell. You can drop it, spend a full round action to cast, and you have an empowered cure critical.

I don't really use those spells either, so I can't comment.  Healing Belts FTW.  :)

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Many Conjuration spells have no save DC and work well with empower. Your Glyph of Warding for example. As for Shalantha's Delicate Disk, I would like to point out that spells are considered the original level when modified by a metamagic feat. A +2 empower, it will get me a 7th level spell in the disk, where as your sanctum only allows 6th level spells in the disk.
  Yes, that's true... except that while that's a "7th-level spell", it still has the effect of a 5th-level spell.  Depending on the spell, that could make a large difference.

Quote
Empower will work on Hail of stone just as well (BTW, the one round casting time does not impress me. Speed Kills) I assume you are sculpting the AoE of Hail of stones so it does not suck. Burning hands cost to damage ratio murders hail of stones once you have more then one target. Unless of course you fight out in the open often and engage your enemy at 100 ft range on a regular basis.
  Yes I would be sculpting it (I said I love sculpt, right? Lol).  And does your cost-to-damage ratio factor in made saves and SR?

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Personally, I'd use sculpt over empower for burning hands. Empower maxes out burning hands at caster level 5. At 6th level, empowered burning hands falls out of your spell list.
  Agreed.

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I'm not saying that empower would be better for you. Clearly with the spells you prefer, it would not. I'm more discussing over all. My focus has been on all spells and all feats. As I plug in the numbers over and over, empower wins. It gives Clerics 5th and 6th level spells that heal one subject significantly more then mass cure light wounds or mass cure serious ever could. It gives Summoned nature's allies more hit points. It gives Sorcerers more use out of a given spell so he doesn't have to duplicate the same spell at a higher level to get more punch. Wizards can never have enough hit points, so an empowered false life is hardly a waste of a spell. Even Shadow magic spells can benefit from Empower, if you need some illusion examples.
An empowered false life takes up a 4th-level slot.  Instead you could be casting other things to not take damage in the first place.  And for clerics, you keep using healbot examples --> not optimized.  Always better to kill your opponent than heal your allies, and out-of-combat you use Healing Belts and wands of Lesser Vigor.

Quote
Any spell with a variable amount benefits from Empower and if you compare a spell of that same level to the empowered spell, empower wins out at the low end of caster levels, and loses as you advance. Empower smooths out your spell progression so there arn't as many 'jumps'. Even factoring a -2 to save DC (which need not always apply), the statistical average points towards Empower.
  What spells have variable amounts that aren't damage spells or healing spells?  There aren't many.  What I'm saying is that you can say "Empower is fantastic for blasters" (which I won't argue as I don't have the experience), but not "Empower is the best overall".  Unless you're saying "Empower is better for blasters than any other metamagic feat is for anyone."  Which isn't true, because I think Sculpt wins that one.

Quote
Yes, empower, like most metamagic feats, does far better with damage on the front end then on the back end. I'll give you that Saving throws are the weak spot of empower. And sculpt is great for low level AoE spells. I just find more uses for an empower across classes and levels then I do for anything else.

I'm not speaking as a player, but as a DM. I never get to play, I just get to make up NPCs and fight the players. I've made a hundred different builds and Empower comes up time and time again as to what strikes fear in a PCs heart. When I get sneaky, the NPCs get to pull off a trick or two, then the players adapt. Once something get past them, they build a defense against it and it never works twice. You should see the monk. Honestly, I just roll the dice and hope for natural 20's at this point. Proud to say they haven't gotten bored yet.

I have yet to find a spellcaster that doesn't use empower on something.
  That's because you tend to build blasters. :)
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Offline Iskajir

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Re: Need Advice for Low Epic Levels....
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2012, 03:13:29 AM »
I'd disagree that Empower is the best metamagic feat... by a long shot.

Here are a couple more ideas.
(a) See if your DM will allow a non-racial adaptation of Shadowcraft Mage. Alternatively, a non-racial adaptation of Recaster (Races of Eberron is not a setting-specific book, the races were all reprinted in MMs).
(b) Dip for divine casting and go into Dweomerkeeper
(c) Epic Spellcasting is a broken system.  See if your DM will accept this instead, it's much cleaner and still allows some serious fun.
(d) Loremaster could be good, it's not bad for a mostly-core prc.  Dracolexi could be fun as well.

Empower was useful for the most spells at the level I took it. I had extend and sculpt on lesser rods already. It was nice on debuffs, and blasts. I hadn't intended to play a blaster, and mostly use direct damage when no one else is able to get through. Not my usual style, but hey...

Shadowcraft Mage is honestly more prep than I want to spend on this game. I have played one before, and they are awesome. DM only uses MM1 and the module, so I doubt changeling will get a pass. Likewise "Eberron" in the title will probably earn me something between a sigh and an eye roll.

Dweormerkeeper is pretty nice, and but a cloistered cleric dip would make it sweet. Alas no UA. The book restrictions are killing me.

*I* LOVE those epic spellcasting rules. Really. I am soooooo bookmarking that. Sadly, I think this DM will not go for it. More importantly, why have I never seen them before???

Loremaster is a bit feat intensive for what it could offer at this level. I have played a Dracolexi before, and it was good fun. I had PW: Pain as a cantrip, PHBII Metamagic ACF, and tore the place up until about 9th level. Still, it's only a 1 feat investment, and there are a few nice things to be had. I think at this level the loss of CL may still outweigh any benefits the class offers. I will look at again though.

As good a reason as any, but if he's allowing epic feats, The mage in the group has been going to town with Epic Quicken.


Ah. have you considered energize spell, then? Or is Libris Mortus out?

Have you considered Master of the Unseen Hand (When you get to epic and no longer have to worry about advancing as a spell caster? (Complete Scoundrel)


Sadly, I am the mage in the group. As a blaster sorcerer. Or rogue dumped CHA, and wouldn't know a rank of UMD if it hit her. Magey-est mage-like mage-thingy.

Libris Mortis is WAY out. With Incarnum, and PHB II, it numbers HIGH on this of things that give the DM the willies.

Master of the Unseen Hand was surprisingly nice for this use. (It's in Complete Warrior, btw.) Full BAB and good Will save, 2+INT skills, d4, easy qualifications. Increases CL, but not spells known or spells/day; fine for epic. It's not powerful, but it could be fun. As an added bonus, I've NEVER seen anyone play one.

Even a smidge of concentrated C.O.-ing
is gonna make you better to much better
than the rest of the party.  And then you'll
have to pull your punches to keep everyone  :)


I agree actually. As it is, I carried a huge burden in the last few fights. It's one of the reasons I am always quick to drop Haste, and keep everybody on Superior Resistance. Also, Fires of Purity (with elemental mastery) on melee-types gives a huge amount of damage for the spell slot. I want GOOD, FUN choices that cover all of the bases. I don't need to be a GOD-wizard in this group, but would like to avoid getting caught with my sorcerous drawers down. Spell Knowledge could certainly help with that. Or higher level slots, and Maximize or Twin Spell (Enhance doesn't seem worth 4 levels, and Intensify is out of reach until 27th, which seems unlikely).

What spells would you suggest with Spell Knowledge?

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Need Advice for Low Epic Levels....
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2012, 06:20:49 PM »
Anything versatile.

Dropping a level 9 spell out-of-combat
just makes the non-casters feel bad.

Dropping a level 9 spell in-combat to
duplicate a situational level 6 spell
just makes the non-casters feel lucky.

Almanther's Return , Shapechange ,
Quicken Limited Wish (extra work to do this).
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Re: Need Advice for Low Epic Levels....
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2012, 12:20:09 AM »
I would drop Archmage entirely myself, if your going Sorcerer then I suggest looking into Battle Sorcerer Variant (DMG) or Stalwart Sorcerer (Complete mage).

Also I might add with Wish, its better to get shapechange (if they didnt nix the spell too much), you can change into an Effreeti and give yourself Wish all you want without the 5k Diamond Dust or whatever the price is.

I suggest also looking into Book of Exalted deeds and look at Exalted Arcanist.  It might prove to be something good?, Its a 4/5 spell casting but its easily fixed if you go Kobold and take the ever so awesome stuff you can do with it.  Draconic Resivoir and the other goodness stuff.

The Abj Champ I would nix that myself, if your going into a Arcane Gish type build I could understand it but Abj Champ isnt all that great.  Your best bet is to go for things the sorcerer is good at.  Get a high arse Dex and Int and your set.

Or look into the Warmage Base class out of Complete Arcane, get some of the goody stuff spells it grants and get Int Mod to Damage.  Problem is the Warmage has no versatility.  Things to think about.